Author Topic: A6M5 climb rate  (Read 3181 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2010, 12:11:37 AM »
First start with the aerodynamic characteristics that affect climb rate.  They are? 
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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2010, 11:22:28 AM »
I suppose the straight- up aerodynamic cleanliness of the aircraft, thrust-weight ratio/propeller efficiency. The only things I can really think of right now.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2010, 02:27:08 PM »
I suppose the straight- up aerodynamic cleanliness of the aircraft, thrust-weight ratio/propeller efficiency. The only things I can really think of right now.

Excess power.  If you do power available/power required analysis, you'll probably be closer to finding what you're looking for.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline dtango

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2010, 03:32:13 PM »
Again, like all reports of this nature, we get a qualitative assessment by the pilots instead of hard, quantitative data.  Without testing weights, power settings, rates of climb, climbing speeds, etc., we get a cloudy picture of the relative performance.  If we were Corsair or Hellcat fanbois, we could desperately grasp to a report like this and cry "Look!, the F6F in-game is porked!  It says so in this report right here!"  Without the context of the test, its only interesting from a historical standpoint; it offers no "proof" of anything.

Hi Gang - been awhile since I've lurked in here ;).  Stoney's spot on.  Also His advice about thinking about the aerodynamics of climb is very important too.  He mentions excess power.

rate of climb = specific excess power = (thrust - drag) / weight * velocity

To illustrate Stoney's point about qualitative vs. quantitative data...

in the sgt pappy's OP we have two data points: rate of climb and airspeed.  That leaves thrust, drag, and weight missing from the ROC equation.  Without them we don't have any idea what we are evaluating because thrust, drag, and weight also make a big difference on ROC.  (Also, don't let the simplicity of the equation fool you.  Thrust and drag can be complicated with many factors dynamically influencing their value.)


So in short we have an anecdote of qualitative climb comparisons between an F4U, F6F, and A6M.  But you can't really use it to do meaningful comparative analysis and flight model study.


Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Offline SgtPappy

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2010, 05:06:10 PM »
This is an interesting equation.

Of course, thrust and drag must take a large amount of analysis to find the net force applied on the plane.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2010, 05:30:13 PM »
Hi Gang - been awhile since I've lurked in here ;).  Stoney's spot on.  Also His advice about thinking about the aerodynamics of climb is very important too.  He mentions excess power.

rate of climb = specific excess power = (thrust - drag) / weight * velocity

To illustrate Stoney's point about qualitative vs. quantitative data...

in the sgt pappy's OP we have two data points: rate of climb and airspeed.  That leaves thrust, drag, and weight missing from the ROC equation.  Without them we don't have any idea what we are evaluating because thrust, drag, and weight also make a big difference on ROC.  (Also, don't let the simplicity of the equation fool you.  Thrust and drag can be complicated with many factors dynamically influencing their value.)

So in short we have an anecdote of qualitative climb comparisons between an F4U, F6F, and A6M.  But you can't really use it to do meaningful comparative analysis and flight model study.


Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs


Tango, skip the FW-190A5/A8 thread, because it will only make your head hurt
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech

Offline Stoney

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2010, 05:41:05 PM »
This is an interesting equation.

Of course, thrust and drag must take a large amount of analysis to find the net force applied on the plane.

Well, you can grab some test data from the E6B to capture an approximate sustained rate of climb.  Use that number on one side of the equation and plug in the "weight*velocity" term since they're known.  That should give you the "thrust-drag" term.  The zero-lift drag coefficients for the F6F and Corsair are known, so you can compute the zero lift drag and add the induced drag and that will give you thrust at that condition, or a fairly close approximation.

As you can see, there's several steps of math here, and a lot of dynamic factors involved.  Every time the altitude increases, at least 4 or 5 of the elements in this equation change, so any approximation would only be accurate for a fixed condition.  This is why we caution you guys from taking stuff in these flight tests at face value.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline dtango

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2010, 05:55:42 PM »

Tango, skip the FW-190A5/A8 thread, because it will only make your head hurt

42 pages???? :O  Lord.  Didn't even see it until you pointed it out.  I think I'll skip that one ;).

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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"At times it seems like people think they can chuck bunch of anecdotes into some converter which comes up with the flight model." (Wmaker)

Offline Stoney

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Re: A6M5 climb rate
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2010, 06:42:51 PM »
42 pages???? :O  Lord.  Didn't even see it until you pointed it out.  I think I'll skip that one ;).

Tango
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

Some epic aero-flymanics in that thread.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

HiTech