M4A3(76)W - first impressions

[Lusche]

it was referd (by the germans) as a Ronson.

I doubt the Germans knew what a Ronson was


Or you may just confuse the Brits with the Germans 

[BigKev03]

I think that the armor on the 76mm sherman is a bit on the to hard to believe stage.  What I mean is I hit one broad side 5 times with another 76mm and nothing.  Finally someone else hit him and killed him.  I actually prefer the 75mm of the panzer over the 76mm gun of the sherman.  However, the armor is near what the firefly was or still is.  Reload speed is off the chart and that is a huge advantage.  I will need to test it some more and see what it can do.

BigKev

[WWhiskey]

in the "76"I rarely kill another Sherman with one shot, mostly three shots to get it!
 panzers on the other hand go down first shot most of the time,
IT normally takes three shots to get me from what I have seen, I got taken out by a tiger today, his shot was glancing along the right side and i was at about 40 % angle from him on the side of a hill as well, only showing the one side. he killed me in two, that seems to be normal from what i have seen.
 to kill the tiger I have to get its turret first, that can take from 1 to 3 shots, the reason I think the "76" wins, is the fact that i can hit him three or four times before he can get guns on unless he sees me first!
The rapid fire of the new Sherman is the #1 thing about it, as far as I can tell

[humble]

Given my dim recollection of such things, wasn't the Sherman refered to as "The Steel Coffin" as it was pretty much dog food when put up against German iron? Or was that only after the advent of Panthers?

This misconception was a direct result of the action at Kasserine Pass, almost 100% of M4A's was due to german 88mm dual purpose guns not enemy tanks....

[gyrene81]

I don't think it was such a misconception.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gExUJ-CMTvM&feature=related



Sherman with a hole in the front of the turret looks like an 88mm...2:44 in]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ms6hFclOGm0&feature=related[url]

Sherman with a hole in the front of the turret looks like an 88mm...2:44 in
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BLZGjwFzmU&feature=related[/url]


I believe the term the Germans used was "Tommycooker".

[humble]

Again the issue isn't the Shermans capabilities as a tank but a clash of doctrine. The Americans (and Germans for that matter) initially viewed Tanks primarily as infantry support weapons (hence the short barrel 75mm on the early PZIV). The Germans integrated an armored AT/dual purpose capability in their armor in the PZIII and the PZVI early on in the war while the Americans had separate vehicles and units (M-10, TD Battalions) for that role. The Germans also utilized the concept of the true AT weapon well before anyone else. The Allies lost most of their armor in Africa to the 88mm and other AT weapons then other tanks. If you actually listen to the clips U attached it highlights that the Germans attacked with PZIV's and were met by british M4A's that quickly knocked out most of the PZIV's and forced the germans to deploy its Tigers. You'll also notice the mobile 88mm dual purpose guns prominently shown early on.

The M4A3 was a perfectly fine tank for its time and perceived role and will stand up very well vs its contemporaries. It is not however a heavy tank or a weapon designed to engage in tank on tank combat vs enemy heavy tanks.

[Lusche]

On rate of fire:

This are the reload times for the tanks in Aces High, a tank fires one shot every...

M4 (75 &76): 3.6s
Sherman VC: 7.2s
T-34/76: 8.2s
T-34/85: 6.8s
Panzer IV: 5.4s
Tiger I: 6.3s

Real world data seems to get a bit more difficult than armor or penetration data. About every serious source I've read so far states (if at all) that the Sherman had a much higher rate of fire than German heavy tanks (Tiger, Panther, King Tiger), which of course makes perfectly sense considering the guns the latter ones carry.
However, I'm wondering (yes, just wondering, not suspecting or knowing) if the Panzer IV's ROF is in line. The gun & ammo is comparable to the 76mm, and yet it's ROF is far lower, and just marginally faster than the Tiger

Maybe someone can provide additional details?

[WWhiskey]

On rate of fire:

This are the reload times for the tanks in Aces High, a tank fires one shot every...

M4 (75 &76): 3.6s
Sherman VC: 7.2s
T-34/76: 8.2s
T-34/85: 6.8s
Panzer IV: 5.4s
Tiger I: 6.3s

Real world data seems to get a bit more difficult than armor or penetration data. About every serious source I've read so far states (if at all) that the Sherman had a much higher rate of fire than German heavy tanks (Tiger, Panther, King Tiger), which of course makes perfectly sense considering the guns the latter ones carry.
However, I'm wondering (yes, just wondering, not suspecting or knowing) if the Panzer IV's ROF is in line. The gun & ammo is comparable to the 76mm, and yet it's ROF is far lower, and just marginally faster than the Tiger

Maybe someone can provide additional details?

the rate of fire of the "76" is almost 2 to 1, combine that with the turret speed and you can get three rounds on target before the first tiger round as long as he doesn't see you, if you get behind him, you might get four!
that's a lot of hits before the tiger even gets a chance to range you, the tiger is also under pressure from being hit and likely to miss more so than the Sherman in my opinion, that gives the Sherman three or four shots to kill the turret and all day long to finish it off!
 on the other hand, if the tiger has you in his sites, your probably toast unless he misses,, always go for the turret first on the tiger if you can, this buys precious time,
 in the tiger shoot low against the Sherman or into the side plates, the sloped armor is stronger than you think, try to hit flat spots in the armor, a shot into the turret doesn't seem to do much of anything at any range and is just wasted time, time he suddenly has on his side as he can shoot back before you can fire again! if you are using the tiger correctly, you should be at a range well beyond his ability to kill you tho he may still get your turret, some of the maps we use are much more friendly to the tiger than others, as in clear field of vision, if there is a lot of trees and cover, the tiger is not nearly as effective as you must get in close to see your enemy and will be very vulnerable to return fire, I very rarely up tigers at another spawn as well, I use them as defensive weapons with a good bit more success, and on high ground as often as I can!

[Pongo]

My expectation would be that the 75 sherman would fire faster then the 76 sherman, the round is noticably bigger on the 76, I do not know that the T23 turret would make up for that.
Pyro has Hunnicut which I presume would have rate of fires for the tanks. But it is quite a feet of engineering if the two tanks actually have the same rate of fire with longer shells using the same turret ring size.
I know where to ask though...

[321BAR]

The Germans also utilized the concept of the true AT weapon well before anyone else. The Allies lost most of their armor in Africa to the 88mm and other AT weapons then other tanks.

The M4A3 was a perfectly fine tank for its time and perceived role and will stand up very well vs its contemporaries. It is not however a heavy tank or a weapon designed to engage in tank on tank combat vs enemy heavy tanks.

1: I think the Russians "utilized" the AT gun well before the Germans when the KV-1 could destroy 20 German vehicles and 3 could kill 50 (23 i think were pnzrs and there were 2 artie units that the germans used as AT weapons due to the fact that German artillery guns were the only things able to kill T34s and KV-1s) in 1941 and early 1942

2: the in game M4 has some flaws in its design at the moment

that gives the Sherman three or four shots to kill the turret and all day long to finish it off!

 in the tiger shoot low against the Sherman or into the side plates, the sloped armor is stronger than you think, try to hit flat spots in the armor, a shot into the turret doesn't seem to do much of anything at any range and is just wasted time, time he suddenly has on his side as he can shoot back before you can fire again!

if you are using the tiger correctly, you should be at a range well beyond his ability to kill you tho he may still get your turret,

few things here.
1: if its the 75mm sherman the turret of the tiger especially IN THE FRONT is off limits! yet ive turreted tigers with the 75mm sherman firing at its front. (pyro stated this will be fixed in a new patch)
2: Yes the sloped armor is stronger than one would think, but the sherman turret is near impenetrable even to 88's (even if theres 89mm of armor and the turret on the sherman's are circular. I'm sorry but when a 75mm sherman can turret me and i cant turret a 76mm at approx the same ranges i dont think thats accurate.
3: agreed agreed and agreed to the last part

[gyrene81]

The 88mm Tiger round should be able to penetrate the front side of a Sherman turret...just not right next to the barrel mount....2:51 into the last video I linked shows that. The range may be in question though since street fighting in tanks was shorter range than open battlefield. One of the other videos specifically shows the aftermath of a short range open field tank battle between Panzer IV's and Shermans...more Shermans were lost than Panzers.

Reload times in real life vary...the book can say one thing but, tank crews have a way of "optimizing" things to give themselves as much of an edge as they can. Training and experience make a big difference.

[Soulyss]

One thing that is left out of the game currently that I think had a significant impact on historical engagements was the sighting systems and optics used.  I'm not familiar with the intricacies of the two systems, the U.S. sight was at least similar to what we have in the game currently, the Germans used a different system that I believe was superior in some regards.

Sadly I don't have specific details but those are my recollections. 

[321BAR]

Pyro stated in another thread that the M4A3 had an armor bug in the turrets.

soulyss, could you possibly find those specifics? you got me interested and i cant find them.

[Soulyss]

Pyro stated in another thread that the M4A3 had an armor bug in the turrets.

soulyss, could you possibly find those specifics? you got me interested and i cant find them.

Was just on my here to post Pyro's comment.

Found a bug in the Shermans that is putting additional armor behind the gun shields.  This will be fixed in the next version.  Avoid shooting them in the gun shield for now. 

As far was the optical systems, I don't have anything on shelf in the way of a book that I can thumb through.  I originally looked into it years ago when I got into playing a tank game called "Panzer Elite" and just found various web sites and such. 

[321BAR]

alright. i'll keep searching. thank you anyways though <S>