F4U-x Tips

[Noah17]

It pays off to drag a good Spit pilot into the DA and die repeatedly to them in your hog.  If you can get close vs. them, you'll have much better luck in the MA.

Vudak, I was wondering about getting close and turning with the Spixteen while flying the F4U. I don't normally try to turn fight anyone unless I'm one on one (I'll get picked otherwise) but when I do I still seem not to be able to out turn the 16.

Are you using all flaps to take advantage of the smaller radius and making nose to nose turns? Are you out turning them nose to tail? If I remember Shaw correctly he said that rate wasn't as important as radius and that if you had a tighter radius after the initial merge you first turn nose to nose and then about halfway through the circle you reverse your turn inside and wait for the "higher rate" opponent to fly through your gun site for the shot. That's assuming they're nice enough to continue the turn for you.......

I've been trying to get back to the TA to meet up w/BigRat to go over a couple things....Maybe I can get him or one of the other trainers out of the Hog to fly the 16 against me...
 

[Saxman]

Rate vs. Radius is largely situational. As the flaps go down the Corsair has a tighter radius than the later Spits. She also has a high INSTANTANEOUS turn rate. More often than not when I'm out-turning a Spixteen, it's in that first few seconds after I drop a notch of flaps. So you CAN out-turn her nose to tail IF you can get the shot within that window. However once your speed goes down the Spitfire's higher sustained turn rate will take control of the fight. At that point you want to try something else.

Changing the fight into a scissors is a decent bet, as when you're turning nose to nose it can swing the fight back into favor of the Corsair with its tighter turning radius at full flaps. However beware of the Spixteen's rate of roll, which can help even things out

[humble]

The spit has a hard time bleeding E. The critical issue is relative E state. If your +E try and stay +E but if your -E then you can force an angles fight on the spit if he doesn't realize what the relative E state is. It's not just a quation of being able to turn quicker but also in bleeding down to best corner speed sooner. You can easily gain a 1/2 circle on a spitty caught just a tad bit faster then you are...

[Vudak]

Noah,

(assuming on the deck, without being able to dive for speed/options).

When fighting Spits, I'm not afraid to drop flaps and try and pull for a quick shot.  I'm also not afraid to keep them down and go for it over the course of several seconds, hoping they'll grow indecisive or make a mistake.

The thing you need to watch out for, is being drawn into a lengthy nose to tail chase where the Spits' better turn rate starts to gain an edge.  Like Saxman said, you're going to want to revert to nose to nose.  This will often briefly expose you to a shot, and you may very well be shot down, but I'd rather take that chance than wait for the inevitable in a nose to tail chase.

Really though, this is reliant on the sixteen's driver not flying very well, and disregarding their upward options.  Then again, it's not uncommon to forget that they have another option than a flat turn.

[Noah17]

Thanks for your thoughts.....Heading to the DA right now! LOL
 

[SgtPappy]

I could be wrong, but after flying the F4U-1D for a bit, it feels as if it actually maneuvers slightly better than even the F4U-1A, and that its acceleration is ever so slightly better.

I know that the 1D is only lighter by about 170 lbs, not too much at all, but am I correct here about the maneuvering?

[Noah17]

In the past I never had much trouble w/ the 1D if I was flying the 1A unless I'm against someone I found out later had a lot more experience than me.

Maybe the flight models have been changed a little??? Not sure why but lately I seem to be going in to an accelerated stall/spin more then I used to. I lightened up my "pitch" attitued on my stick because of it........But again, I'm just a new guy...what do I know anyway????? Maybe I'm flying a little too aggressively.

[SgtPappy]

Well the F4U-1A is faster by some 12 mph since it lacks wing bomb pylons, but it's also heavier due to extra fuel tanks. However, the lack of these pylons may mean the -1A turns better too, but it feels like the -1D turns tighter. I seem to gray out more in it at the same speeds. Can anyone confirm?

No, I'm pretty sure the environment and the F4U's are exactly the same and have been so since their update.

Perhaps you are a little too agressive on the stick. When I first started I used to get into these nasty spins that would take like 6000' to recover from. I've been very shy with the rudder since then, but turns out to really fly the plane, you need a lot of rudder...

[SgtPappy]

Well the F4U-1A is faster by some 12 mph since it lacks wing bomb pylons, but it's also heavier due to extra fuel tanks. However, the lack of these pylons may mean the -1A turns better too, but it feels like the -1D turns tighter. I seem to gray out more in it at the same speeds. Can anyone confirm?

But no, Noah, I'm pretty sure the environment and the F4U's are exactly the same and have been so since their update.

Perhaps you are a little too agressive on the stick. When I first started I used to get into these nasty spins that would take like 6000' to recover from. I've been very shy with the rudder since then, but turns out to really fly the plane, you need a lot of rudder...

[SgtPappy]

I have no idea how the above post possibly doubled....

[KingRat]

These are some very good responses, but reading some of them gave me a headache.   This is why I suck at dogfighting...I find it difficult to use my calculator and joystick at the same time.  Apparently I'm too dumb to furball.  We have an E state now?  Time for a new atlas I guess mine skips from Delaware to Florida.

[whiteman]

KingRat I know little when it comes to speaking and talking about dog fighting, but when it comes to the game and dog fighting i just have a feel for things. from the time i started about every 3 months a light would come on and something else would make perfect sense all of a sudden, and it was always something in game that triggered it. reading for the most part about in depth dog fighting was like a 2nd language for me and still is.

[SgtPappy]

KingRat, I don't blame you.

I'm still learning myself, but really, if you're really interested in aircraft and this game, just keep reading and learning. It's kinda like school, but this game has actually really helped me get into aerospace and I'm enjoying the program.

When I first began playing, I was dying way too much, and the language of dogfighting really was one of feeling how aircraft fly. Hang in there, there are a lot of us like you 

[Saxman]

These are some very good responses, but reading some of them gave me a headache.   This is why I suck at dogfighting...I find it difficult to use my calculator and joystick at the same time.  Apparently I'm too dumb to furball.  We have an E state now?  Time for a new atlas I guess mine skips from Delaware to Florida.

Probably a gross simplification, but here goes:

E state is how much energy your aircraft has for maneuvers. It is more or less determined by your speed and altitude relative to your opponent. In order to maneuver, your aircraft needs so much airspeed. If you fall below this speed, more than likely your aircraft will stall and be unable to remain in the air. Think of what you learned about kinetic vs. potential energy in science class. Kinetic energy is energy actually in use. You can think of this as your airspeed: It's the amount of energy you have RIGHT NOW in order to maneuver.

Potential energy is energy that is stored, which you can see as your altitude. This is energy that you can convert to kinetic energy by diving. When you dive, the aircraft accelerates and converts this potential energy into kinetic energy: You trade off altitude for airspeed. Conversely, if you have a surplus of kinetic energy, by climbing you can "bank" this energy for future use: trading airspeed for altitude. Simply put, the more altitude you have, the more energy you have stored.

A pilot who carefully works his airspeed and altitude is managing his E State. A pilot who utilizes the difference in E States between his craft and that of his opponent, forcing the target to burn of energy while maintaining his own E State is said to be "E Fighting."

[Noah17]

KingRat,

It's a lot to learn to be good at this. One of the hardest things for me was the realization that many here have been flying and learning flight sims for years....Some for over a decade. In WWII when we could train them properly U.S. pilots got over 300 hours flight time...not included other related training before going to combat. AH is my first flight sim ever. I started in earnest in July last year and I may just now be getting close to 300 hours......

It's been a lot of fun and sometimes very frustrating getting killed a bunch but, I love the history and learning about how to fight. Coming here to the BBS and learning from the guys with all that experience kept me from quitting, helped me learn and has been a lot of fun. I feel that I can at least give just about anyone a good fight now even if I don't win. But, if I lose I'll have the video to refer to so I can learn from my mistakes.

If you haven't gotten them already pick up Robert Shaws "Fighter Combat" and, "In Persuit" (I forget the guys name). These are IMO the best, most interesting reads you will find. "Fighter Combat" is a little dry but it is considered to be the "Bible" in this subject. "In Persuit" is written specifically for the gamer and is a quicker read.

I hope this helps,