G940 Firmware Update Warning

[FLS]

But never mind that I know how to change what you feel now back to what you felt before firmware update . That it is something that is neither intuitive , nor makes a bit of sense . That it is a weird combination to stumble on . I hope you have good luck figuring it out .Because the only way I will tell anyone is if they can give me something to fix my issue .

That's nice that you think you have a fix but you won't share it. It sort of reminds me of your request for an AH profile for your G940. I remember I sent you one so I guess it's not really that similar.

With the stall instead giving a buffet effect , you can't really tell if the G940 is the problem . With FX porked here it is entirely possible the stick is just doing what the game is telling it .

That's BS. You have your axe to grind so you post nonsense. The G940 firmware update porked the FFB for many people in many sims.

[hlbly]

I'm on my 3rd G940 (1st two replaced due to spiking on rudder axis).   I have updated the software to 5.09 and applied firmware update, still have spiking on rudder which makes pedals unusable.  I've tried maxing the hysteresis on the rudder axis to 255 and it doesn't help.

Running Win 7 and since all my G940s have had this problem, still wondering if its a driver issue.

Oboe this is a weird one bro . On my new rig tildeath built for me . Any seperate rudders I used spiked , only the ones on my twisty stick didn't . I dampened scaled and did everything I could to minimise what I couldn't fix . With the G940 I dont have spikes at all . I only found one thing that stopped my rudder spikes . When i used a program from logitech from their SDK . I had the spikes on my saitek peds my ch and some ch prop eds that were borrowed . The utilty stopped spiking on the 2 that I could try . I will find the link or put it on the muppet ftp server if you like . It is called poswdm.exe . Stop the polling see if spikes go away .

[hlbly]

That's nice that you think you have a fix but you won't share it. It sort of reminds me of your request for an AH profile for your G940. I remember I sent you one so I guess it's not really that similar.

That's BS. You have your axe to grind so you post nonsense. The G940 firmware update porked the FFB for many people in many sims.

Do a complete uninstall of software including clean the registry . Install firmware without software installed . Reboot install 5.09 . In game controllers in windows uncheck enable centering forces . then in profiler under axis properties start reducing sensitivities until you get what you want . The reducing sensitivity of axis is when it started varying the return to center strength on mine . Worked for my buddy in IL2 as well . FLS the difference was that I was never rude to you when you helped me . Since you helped me ,what I believe in allows me no other action than this . Good luck .Also the ffb issue I have with Aces High you have too . I really hope this works for you , maybe then you might actually try the test I have suggested . And see it gives the result I know will happen . Maybe read the bottom post on the links i posted  where the bug is acknowledged by htc staff . I think if you understood the most important aspect of FFB as far as information given to you , is not right you would be interested in it being changed as well .A friend of mine has a degree in programming . Two friends have used stick shakers in fighters , and I have used 4 different ffb sticks in several flight sims over the years .the programmer flies here I would need his permission to post his name . The name of the pilots are Former USMC Captain Justin Rempe pilot of FA-18s and former squaddy in AW . Col. Tim Parker USAF Academy graduate and child hood friend from Misawa AFB Japan where our dads worked together . Look them up . I have looked at this from every possible angle got questions answered from people who know . I also suggest looking at immersion corp they answer alot of questions MS can't or wont . Note you are still being rude . My ax to grind eh ?  Why don't you try disabling stall in game leave buffet enabled go for a spin tell me what you feel . If my solution doesn't work I am sure you won't bother . If it does a few minutes of your time is not too much to expect is it ?

[Ghastly]

I know we're talking a different product, but at the time that I was beta-testing WB's III, I was using (first) a Logitech Wingman Force (not the POS 3D they sell today, but it's 20 lb predecessor) and then a MS FF2.  And the sticks both were "flawed" in terms of how the sim supported them, albeit in different ways.   

I spoke several times with the programmer, and found that at least at that time, they almost had to program for each individual stick they were going to support, because each stick would implement different portions of the API - and at times, even if they implemented the same API functionity, they would do so enough differently that it would "feel" completely wrong on one stick when
exactly right for another.

Which is a round about way of saying that if it doesn't work in AH, it might not be (entirely) the developers fault, as I don't believe that it's quite as cut and dried as it would seem it should be to implement FF.

All IMHO, YMMV - It's been 8 years or so of water under the bridge since those conversations.

<S>

[GreenEagle43]

http://cogadget.com/2009/06/02/logitech-launches-force-feedback-flight-stimulation-controller-g490/

[FLS]

I know we're talking a different product, but at the time that I was beta-testing WB's III, I was using (first) a Logitech Wingman Force (not the POS 3D they sell today, but it's 20 lb predecessor) and then a MS FF2.  And the sticks both were "flawed" in terms of how the sim supported them, albeit in different ways.   

I spoke several times with the programmer, and found that at least at that time, they almost had to program for each individual stick they were going to support, because each stick would implement different portions of the API - and at times, even if they implemented the same API functionity, they would do so enough differently that it would "feel" completely wrong on one stick when
exactly right for another.

Which is a round about way of saying that if it doesn't work in AH, it might not be (entirely) the developers fault, as I don't believe that it's quite as cut and dried as it would seem it should be to implement FF.

All IMHO, YMMV - It's been 8 years or so of water under the bridge since those conversations.

<S>

Ghastly the issue here is that the firmware update changed the stick performance by adding a permanent centering force that cannot be turned off and it lost the linear greater G load = firmer stick effect. It's not an AH issue. It worked just fine in AH prior to the update.  My gripe with Logitech is that they stated from day one that the lack of FFB in the center was not a driver or firmware issue. Then they porked the FFB in order to "fix" the problem in firmware.  Some people aren't seeing a problem. I don't know if it's their preferences, perceptions or actual stick behavior that's different but the fact is that a lot of people have a problem with the update and no amount of tweaking or adjusting settings is making any difference. I'd be surprised if anybody at Logitech tested the new firmware with Aces High before releasing it.

[Ghastly]

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to confuse the issue with the G940 porked firmware - I was posting in response to hilbly's assertion that FF is "broke in AH in general". 

<S>

[Ack-Ack]

Oboe this is a weird one bro . On my new rig tildeath built for me . Any seperate rudders I used spiked , only the ones on my twisty stick didn't . I dampened scaled and did everything I could to minimise what I couldn't fix . With the G940 I dont have spikes at all . I only found one thing that stopped my rudder spikes . When i used a program from logitech from their SDK . I had the spikes on my saitek peds my ch and some ch prop eds that were borrowed . The utilty stopped spiking on the 2 that I could try . I will find the link or put it on the muppet ftp server if you like . It is called poswdm.exe . Stop the polling see if spikes go away .

Link

ack-ack

[hlbly]

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to confuse the issue with the G940 porked firmware - I was posting in response to hilbly's assertion that FF is "broke in AH in general".  

<S>

Sigh does anyone read what was linked . I will cut and paste .
from skuzzy august 8 2007    "The 'buffet' feature in the force feedback is not working at the moment."





from sudz sept 24th 2008   "We are aware of this and one other FF bug.  Unfortunately, an in-house hardware hiccup caused a delay in addressing either issue. We were, however, able to confirm both as bugs and are on the list to be fixed."

Both seem to support my "assertion" that ffb is broke in ah2 and "confirm" that the "issue" effects everyone that uses ffb in AH2 . Easy to reproduce it so anyone can be aware of it turn off stall give it a whirl . See what effects you feel . I guess it didn't work for you FLS . I also guess you didn't try my test for ffb in ah2 . Well we both got something from the other we could not use .Once again the difference is I said thank you anyway . I really wish that people would actually test it out before they tried to say that the problem is my personal ax to grind or that I am asserting something not true .That I have not made myself aware of  all things it might possibly be . I personally tried the test on 3 different sticks using 2 seperate PC's . I had the problem in all 6 different configurations .I did this before i posted word one . I am not the one making assumptions in this thread . Anything I assert to be a problem in AH2 no matter what it is . I will give a simple test that will reproduce the problem for any/every user . Which leads me back to my question for FLS . Why does this FFB problem bother you ? You don't notice/care about the single most important aspect of ffb . Does not "broke is broke" apply ? I can sense your frustration . Logitech has not been very fast about addressing customer issues have they ? Look on the bright side . Look at the date of the post from htc acknowledging there is a problem . Then look at todays date . Thanks for the link ack ack .

[Ghastly]

Sorry again -

Hlbly, I didn't mean to imply that you're somehow wrong in your assertion that FF is broke in AH in general.  I was simply trying to pass on (admittedly old) information from a developer of a similar product that FF is/was far more difficult to code than would seem reasonable because each stick type would behave very differently to the same API calls, and that there is/was at least 2 "incompatible" API's in use.

Having now offended everybody equally, I'll bow out... 

<S>
 

[hlbly]

My apoligies ghastly . I guess I have become a little sensitive about this . FLS is not even close to the first person who has said it is my problem . That I am on some crusade to harm htc's reputation . That I am someone looking to glorify AirWarrior . I'm not any of them true . I remember it as a community I loved that played a deeply flawed game . A series of band aid on missing limbs and sucking chest wounds . Where everything was "on your end" . When it comes to the point of the matter they won't respond . This is the point it goes to insult , ridicule or implication . Take a look at the thread for example . My"personal ax to grind" is my statement that AH2 has FFB that is not working correctly . The first response to my statement that it is possible that the stick is just doing what the game is telling it to do . I did not say that IS whats happening . Then a reply by fls that it is an "issue" that I have with ah2 and this wasn't the place for it . My post was on topic . I did not expand on the topic by detailing anything about the error . My links were to support my claim that AH2 has a ffb bug . Now before he even reads <assumption> my links . It becomes my "issue" . Does he defend his position that it is my issue and not a game wide  thing . No he just ignores it ,and my test so he could duplicate the problem for himself . My experience has shown they will simply ignore the points I make . If any reply is made it will be ridicule insult or simple statement that I was wrong . No reference to posts from HTC's acknowledging its a bug , or reply about the test i suggest . So I am sorry , I am defensive . I am that way because of discussions like this before . That is no excuse though for me , looking for the same treatment from you I get from others .Mia Culpa . BTW was the 2 api's you are talking about direct input and IFORCE2 ?

[FLS]

Ghastly I'm just trying to keep this thread focused on the firmware issue since it seems that everybody in AH that updated the firmware is unhappy with it. The exception of course being hlbly.

Hlbly I don't see how your "fix" could help anybody with the firmware issue since the firmware updater won't run when you already have the current firmware.

[humble]

I really don't notice any negative specific to the incremental feel of the FFB...it is what it was so to speak. My issues are basic and center around the stick constantly dropping USB and having constant calibration issues and other "hiccups". There are numerous reports of this on the Logitech bbs forum. As for all the complaints the simple reality is that the profiler should allow you to enhance "feel" but the stick should work reasonably in a full featured way at the default setting.

[Ack-Ack]

Sorry again -

Hlbly, I didn't mean to imply that you're somehow wrong in your assertion that FF is broke in AH in general.  I was simply trying to pass on (admittedly old) information from a developer of a similar product that FF is/was far more difficult to code than would seem reasonable because each stick type would behave very differently to the same API calls, and that there is/was at least 2 "incompatible" API's in use.

Having now offended everybody equally, I'll bow out... 

<S>
 

Back at the time you described, the reason why the programmer was having troubles with coding the force feedback was due to the 2 different APIs that were being used at the time.  Logitech was using the standard I-Force API while Microsoft was using their proprietary Force Factory API (which MS was at the time trying to force as the new API standard) and any software using both had to be coded to use both APIs added on top of that was that the I-Force API supported different effects than the Force Factory API and vice versa and also the effects themselves felt differently between APIs.  I do not eny that programmer that had to code for both, it must have been a nightmare.

ack-ack

[Ghastly]

That sounds almost exactly right Ack Ack. 

<S>!