Weapon Leathality

[Beefcake]

     Interesting when your bomber is cruising around at 300 mph huh?

The "heavies" can't do 300mph when loaded and the only ones that can are rarely used. Even then what fighters are unable to catch/overtake a buff doing 300mph? F4F? I-16? The only planes which might not able to overtake a 300mph bomber are planes that are not suited to attack buffs in the first place, IE it's the wrong tool for the job.

Most pilots are just lazy and impatient and refuse to take the time needed for a good attack. Instead they charge in low and slow from dead six and promptly get sent back to the tower in short order.
 

[SpinMan]

Maybe you need to learn new methods for attacking your white wales instead of blaming the game for your pitfalls.

Im presuming however never actually clarified that a non stupid approach was taken, on making this post myself and 2 other seasoned pilots dove in on a flight of 17's manned by a skillful gunner (1) the same guy supposedly flying the things:)  We took one buff each and differed in our attack angles.  On 1st pass two of us were smoked or PW'd on making a second pass we were finished off, I was killed eggressing front to rear, 400 kias coupled with his 250 should have had me ripping off into the distance faster than his rounds could catch me...or so I thought:P  Smoking but otherwise undamaged the flight carried on its merry way.  Historically single 17's have successfully defended of single attackers at high alts but rarely multiples......did I mention the 5" guns on the carriers:)

[Ack-Ack]

Im presuming however never actually clarified that a non stupid approach was taken, on making this post myself and 2 other seasoned pilots dove in on a flight of 17's manned by a skillful gunner (1) the same guy supposedly flying the things:)  We took one buff each and differed in our attack angles.  On 1st pass two of us were smoked or PW'd on making a second pass we were finished off, I was killed eggressing front to rear, 400 kias coupled with his 250 should have had me ripping off into the distance faster than his rounds could catch me...or so I thought:P  Smoking but otherwise undamaged the flight carried on its merry way.  Historically single 17's have successfully defended of single attackers at high alts but rarely multiples......did I mention the 5" guns on the carriers:)

The reason why the B-17 gunner was able to defend his bomber against multiple attackers came in stupid and got shot up and paid the price.  It isn't a case of the guns on a B-17 or any other bomber being too uber, it's just a simple case of not using the correct tactics to engage and shoot down a gunned B-17 in this game.

ack-ack

[SpinMan]

That gunner in the buff was lucky to encounter 3 players without any sort of knowledge on how to properly attack a bomber formation.  If anyone of those 3 had a clue, the gunner along with his formation would be dead.  No matter how good of a gunner or bomber pilot you are, you will lose 99.99% of the time to the fighter pilot that knows what he's doing.


Grossly exaggerated but hey, you were on a roll.


You're dying because you're not being smart when attacking things like PT boats, flak panzies, bombers and the like.  You're blaming the game for what is basically your own doing.  Not much different than the people that cry to perk the Spitfire Mk XVI because they can't fight against one.  I guess, just like screaming "PERK IT!", it's far easier just to scream "FIX IT!" instead of taking some time to learn and practice and build up on your skills.


ack-ack

Id agree with you if I were some nub that hasn't been around a while.  The point im getting at is these guns werent that lethal before and now they are, explain where any level of extra skill or lack there of fixes this?  The lethality of these guns have been increased....Or am I incorrect?  Certainly feels like it to me.  We all have room to improve which is what keeps these genres from getting stale.  FYI ive been around since the days of Dos on the Genie server many many years ago, I understand apples to apples and all.  Restore the balance

[Karnak]

The bombers in AH are clearly more effective air-to-air than they were historically.  Personally I think it is a combination of speed and overly stiff mounts increasing accuracy.


That said, it is pretty much a required gameplay concession.  If bombers did not have a reasonable chance to fight off fighters, they wouldn't get used much at all.

[SpinMan]

Perhaps its not the particular 50cal round that is the issue, but certainly the convergence of all the guns firing from all the aircraft all converging on the the same point from 1 single gunner is certainly frustrating.  The amount of time invested by the devs to do their homework and make the game dynamics and performances of the a/c realistic should IMHO be consistant throughout. As said in the 1st instance im whining:) I recall fondly the days of 1 manned position 1 gun firing, if you wanted more success you recruited gunners to fill positions....Have I mentioned the 5" and puffy?

[Karnak]

Perhaps its not the particular 50cal round that is the issue, but certainly the convergence of all the guns firing from all the aircraft all converging on the the same point from 1 single gunner is certainly frustrating. 

They don't do that.

The guns from a single bomber fire in parallel to each other.  These streams of parallel flying bullets from the three bombers cross each other at the fixed distance of 500 yards.  This means that in most cases only one bomber can even be hitting you, but it does create a shotgun effect making individual hits more likely.

[Krusty]

I don't think that's correct karnak, otherwise there would never be a purpose to coding formations in the first place. I believe all bomber guns on all ships converge at 500 yards, not just the plane you are firing from.


Otherwise there would never be multiple hits and from my personal experience it seems there are multiple hits from different drones on the same target.

[Karnak]

Krusty,

You misread what I wrote.  The guns an an individual bomber don't converge at all.  The streams from each of the three bombers converge at 500 yards.

[Kweassa]

I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.

Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.

Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.

[Lusche]

I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.

Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.

Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.

I can assure you I have been up to the best buff gunenrs in game, guys that are almost exclusively & successfully bombers, as buff hunting is my main mission in AH .
They are are tremendoulsy dangerous game, not only by pure gunning skill but also by using formations, altitude & routing to maximum effect.

But still, as long as I don't get careless and keep on utilizing the weapons speed & angles, they go down most of the time, not me. It's no comparison to guys with a similar skill level in fighters, those kick me around all the time.

[Nemisis]

I do seem to recall a challenge from Urchin to Toad, in which Urchin's argument was along the lines of Karnak's, and Toad's argument was along the line of everyone else. IIRC, Toad failed to shoot down Urchin's bombers.

Ofcourse, this once incident doesn't prove anything, but it does give you something to think about. Maybe it's just that the "buffs are easy to kill" guys never really meet people as experienced in gunnery as themselves manning the defensive guns in buffs. I mean, usually people who fly buffs are not really the 'vet' sort of people, and all.

Maybe the vets who feel confident in both gunnery and flying skills should get together and actually test it out to see how often one can so 'easily' shoot down buffs that are manned by people actually as skilled as theselves. Might be interesting to see how the results come out.

Karnak vs 999000!!!!!! A fight to the death  !!!!!

[Krusty]

Krusty,

You misread what I wrote.  The guns an an individual bomber don't converge at all.  The streams from each of the three bombers converge at 500 yards.

My bad, you're right I misread you.

EDIT: But I thought each turret on each plane also converged, not just fired parallel. Otherwise waist guns and dorsal/ball guns would never hit the same target coming in from the side, tail and dorsal would never hit targets coming in hich 6, etc.

[Karnak]

Krusty,

That is a common error.  Many people seem to think they converge, but they really don't.  This doesn't have much effect when coming up the 6 of a B-17 as the ball turret's guns are, what, 2-3 ft below the tail guns, but it does have a large effect on side shots.

Go offline and shoot at the target from various angles off the bomber and it will show up.

[Steve]

I've attacked the buff formation of the best gunners in the game with my fragile and meekly armed p51 and done just fine.  If you are having trouble killing them or getting multiple passes, your methods are flawed.