Discuss: F6F-5 Performance

[SgtPappy]

I don't know if this has been talked about recently, but I think it's pretty important for this discussion to be continued now.

The most recent thread I could find was this, also started by myself: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,252200.0.html

Unfortunately, it just turned into a big P-51 argument rather than an F6F-5 performance debate.

409 mph Hellcat? That's a notion supported by many tests, apparently, all of which were provided by WideWing. Somewhere in there it says that the F6F-5 and F4U-1D had virtually the same maximum performance numbers.

[Chalenge]

You mean the factory test where it performed better without armor and guns or ammo?  

EDIT: I did find a page that alleges to have data from Boscombe Down that shows the F6F5 performing a little better but its 391 @23100ft and not 402:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf

[Ghosth]

Well I know Widewing did not agree with the way the F6f was modeled. And the test data shows that the F4u series shouldn't out turn it, yet they do in game.

The problem is to find really reliable data that is not subjective.

[SgtPappy]

I'm not sure about the condition of the aircraft but I was reading WideWing's test data, which he found from Mike Williams' site.

Ghosth, the F4U turns pretty badly without flaps and the Hellcat will turn with the F4U even if both have 10 degrees of flaps down. It's only after that when the Hellcat is out turned. In addition, multiple tests say the F4U should easily 'out climb' the F6F-5, yet it doesn't.

Plus, the P-38 is widely known in tests to out turn a P-51 with 10 degrees of flaps. In this game it will do so, but only momentarily since its turn radius is larger, so 'out turn' is pretty subjective.

A Spitfire Ia should 'out turn' a Hurricane Mk.Ia but in this game, it doesn't.

I have to say that the fact that an F6F-5 can out turn an F4U in any condition at all already follows the saying that 'a Hellcat should out turn a Corsair'.

Stoney and I had conversations about this, and he stated that everything in this game is based on math, and can conflict with the subjective test data.

[Baumer]

Actually an area I am thoroughly researching it the Hellcats preformance. I have come a cross an interesting comparison in the "Report of Joint Fighter Conference, NAS Paxtuxent River, MD. 16-23 Oct. 1944" published by Schiffer Military Press.

The flight test panel was a who's who list of the best factory pilots of the day with many industry professionals who went onto great things. In the back of the book is all of the tabulated flight reports and I found one aspect particularly interesting. For some of the planes accelerated 3G stall tests were performed and the Hellcats 3G speed is significantly lower than I expected. I am continuing to gather information and verify testing methodology but it does provide some data to work with. I need to get some more information to some of the other people I've asked for help, but I hope to have a more definitive answer soon about the Hellcat performance.

[Chalenge]

...Stoney and I had conversations about this, and he stated that everything in this game is based on math, and can conflict with the subjective test data.

'Subjective' meaning by perspective... feeling... beliefs... desires...

I favor the math side myself. 

[SgtPappy]

Actually an area I am thoroughly researching it the Hellcats preformance. I have come a cross an interesting comparison in the "Report of Joint Fighter Conference, NAS Paxtuxent River, MD. 16-23 Oct. 1944" published by Schiffer Military Press.

...

 For some of the planes accelerated 3G stall tests were performed and the Hellcats 3G speed is significantly lower than I expected. I am continuing to gather information and verify testing methodology but it does provide some data to work with.

Can I find this test online anywhere and are any aircraft tested with flaps? Do you think our F6F-5 reflects the turn rate given in that test?

[Baumer]

Sorry it's not on-line anywhere I can find it. But you can buy it here.

http://www.schifferbooks.com/newschiffer/book_template.php?isbn=0764304046

I highly recommend it, it gives a lot of insight into the designers and manufacturers thoughts. Especially with the number of eminently qualified test pilots of the day.

There's no specific testing done at various flap settings like AH (most planes don't have the same flap "steps" we have in AH). There is one test in particular that drew my attention and that is the accelerated 3G stall test. The average 3G stall speed in the report for the Hellcat is MUCH lower than what we get in game. However, this could be due to many factors and may not be an accurate reflection of its true performance. I am working to gather more data, and review the validity of the test, before a definitive answer can be given.

If the data turns out to be somewhat accurate, it would lead to better high speed (relative to the Hellcats performance) maneuverability.

[wgmount]

Here are the combat flight tests results that I found it was published in 1988 in an article for Naval aviation news.

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f6f-5.pdf

It is a comparison of the F6F-3 and F6F-5

[Widewing]

You mean the factory test where it performed better without armor and guns or ammo?  

EDIT: I did find a page that alleges to have data from Boscombe Down that shows the F6F5 performing a little better but its 391 @23100ft and not 402:

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf

Look at the data again.... 391 mph at MIL power, not WEP. Keep that in mind. Other tests show the F6F-5 easily exceeding 400 mph when using combat power.

[Chalenge]

Widewing I was scanning for peak speeds and thats it... but looking at it again they seem to be saying that combat power (WEP) is less power than MIL? Okay... so why?

[Charge]

"Look at the data again.... 391 mph at MIL power, not WEP. Keep that in mind. Other tests show the F6F-5 easily exceeding 400 mph when using combat power."

What other tests? From the thread in 2008 I found one comparison test which probably presented only the indicated speeds and thus cannot be considered very reliable.

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/f6f/f6f-5-58310.pdf

Looking at the data in link above seems to indicate the standard figure of 390mph at 23.000ft and in combat power 394 at 19.000ft even if the engine output was increased 1650hp to 1950 i.e quite significantly. According to that data it looks impossible for F6F to exceed 400mph in level flight with that supercharger.

-C+

[Widewing]

What other tests? From the thread in 2008 I found one comparison test which probably presented only the indicated speeds and thus cannot be considered very reliable.

This test: http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/japan/ptr-1111.pdf

409 mph @ 21,600 feet, tested at Patuxent Naval Air Station, November 1944.

[Stoney]

So what's the rub then?  What's the stated reason they don't bump the speed up?

[SgtPappy]

I suppose HTC just needs more proof; perhaps another test that proves that the Hellcat, in combat condition at so-and-so engine settings will hit that speed.

I'm sure the community would greatly appreciate a faster Hellcat.