Author Topic: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)  (Read 1062 times)

Offline WMLute

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Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« on: May 27, 2010, 04:26:25 PM »
I drive an older Honda that I just can't bring myself to get rid of.  130k miles on it and it drives exactly like it did when I bought it.

Anyhoo I needed to charge my AC and was told, by my local Honda dealer, that I should convert it from R12 to R134.  There was only @ $20-30 bucks diff between converting and charging it w/ the old so I went ahead and did the conversion on their advice.

This was 2-3 weeks ago.

We had a cold snap right when I did the conversion so I have not really used the AC at all since the conversion.  (maybe had it on 1 min tops) Today I turned on my AC for the first time for any length, drove a bit and heard a huge hissing sound.  Pulled over and there was a puddle of mess all over the engine compartment near the AC.

Took it to the dealer and they are wanting to charge me $80 bucks to diagnose it, and then whatever it costs to fix whatever the problem is.  

(we suspect a seal, or o-ring, or some such thing blew out)

I'm kinda ticked about the whole thing and think they are out of line to charge me to diagnose it at all.

It seems, to me, too much of a coincidence that the first time I use the AC after they worked on it the thing blows up.  Something is not right.  Looking at the manual that system uses less than a lbs and 1/2 of coolant and I almost suspect they overcharged it thus causing it to blow out.  (but I have no knowledge about this stuff and that is only conjecture)

Of course it COULD be that I have an older car and "stuff" just wears out on it, but I am still finding the timing of it all very suspect.

I personally think they should diagnose it, fix it, and not charge me labor but I will pay for the parts.  Odds are they did "something" that caused this to fail and I don't think I should pay for their mistake.

I think that is reasonable.

Opinions?

What should I expect them to do here?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2010, 04:29:49 PM by WMLute »
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Offline jdbecks

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2010, 04:41:16 PM »
I did not think you could just change the older type of aircon to the new stuff, I thought the whole system had to be changed, which could be the reason why it has deteriorated the seals..but I maybe wrong..as I don't normally work with aircon 
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2010, 04:51:12 PM »
I did not think you could just change the older type of aircon to the new stuff, I thought the whole system had to be changed, which could be the reason why it has deteriorated the seals..but I maybe wrong..as I don't normally work with aircon 

It was a Honda factory conversion kit that was used.  (they had to order it)

I am wondering, now that I am googlin' like mad about this, if they did the conversion the right way or not.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2010, 05:00:35 PM »
I personally think they should diagnose it, fix it, and not charge me labor but I will pay for the parts.  Odds are they did "something" that caused this to fail and I don't think I should pay for their mistake.

2-3 weeks ago? screw that, they fix it all FOC. or you get someone else to fix it and the dealer can pay for that, plus legal costs. hopefully the dealer is smart enough to know which option is cheaper for them.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2010, 07:12:41 PM »
2-3 weeks ago? screw that, they fix it all FOC. or you get someone else to fix it and the dealer can pay for that, plus legal costs. hopefully the dealer is smart enough to know which option is cheaper for them.
What he said. No reason for you to pay for anything when they installed it.
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2010, 07:58:08 PM »
Take it one step at a time.

1. Ask them to diagnose it and if it is a unrelated issues you will pay for the diagnosis. what you want here is a normal response OK that sounds great, anything else and ask for the manager.

2. It is my guess that if it is an entirely new system and self contained that they must warranty it.

3. Alls states have implied merchantability laws where they have to offer you some kind of warranty.

4. Be carefull about having anyone else do any work on the system before you give them " reasonable opportunity" to make it right. Or it will void your warranty and you will have no legal options. Ask them to put all responses in writing, with what there reasoning is for charging you to diagnosis it. Oh and put your request in writing to them telling them this is there notice for reasonable opportunity to make it right.

Offline rpm

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2010, 09:19:22 PM »
You can convert an R-12 system to R-134. They sell kits at the local parts store for around $20. It has new o-rings and a tube of ester to coat the inside of the hoses. R-134 has smaller molecules and can seep thru older hoses and o-rings. I converted a couple old pickups I used to have and both worked fine, just not quite as good as they did on R-12.

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Offline j500ss

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2010, 09:28:30 PM »
Sonicblu hit it, find out what the issue is first.  Tell them to stop there.  From that point decide best course of action.  In the end, dealer should be looking at it for very reduced fee or free.   Let us know, many here to help with such issues.

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 12:27:41 PM »
(UPDATE)

After talking w/ the Service Manager they diagnosed it for free and this is what they said happened.

The High Pressure Switch failed and caused the Emergency Release Valve to pop off.

This is what they are telling me.

To fix it, replacing the switch, emerg. valve, and recharging the system will run me @ $200.00.  

I shopped that price at other garages and it is $100-150 cheaper than everybody else.

Here is where it gets "fun".  They said that the actual "cause" could be something else like the fan for the AC not working.  The only way to figure THAT out is to repair the valve/switch, charge it up, and then figure it out.

Hopefully it was just a faulty switch.

Dunno.  I thought that sounded "fair" so I told 'em to go for it.  They gota order a part and it'll be Tue. before they can fix it so I got me a HOT car for this holiday weekend.

Does this sound "right" to everybody?  I really don't think they are trying to bang me for $ as I priced the parts at a diff. honda dealer and they were inline w/ the quote I was given.  I was told it would be 1 1/2 hours labor (sounds @ right) and $30.00 for the R-134 to recharge it so that breaks down to...

$100.00 parts
$30.00 recharge
$70.00 labor.

ish.
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Offline Dragon

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 12:50:49 PM »
The fan not running would cause the pressure to rise to the point of hitting the high limit.  R-12 and R134a run at almost identical operating pressures, so the change in freon, if done properly, shouldn't have caused anything to be much different. 

I wonder it the safety switch was not reinstalled or wired back in after the swap was done.  I worry that the A/C was not tested properly after the freon exchange was performed.  Normal run time to test the A/C would be 10 min at least to give the system time to balance, check the temp of the air and take a gander at the gauges to assure proper pressures.  By this time, someone should have noticed if the fan had turned on or not!!!

$200.00 is a fair price for the work needed, but I would test the A/C fully before leaving their lot this time.


 
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Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 02:26:34 PM »
(update #2)

Ok, THIS is what I am now being told.

The only thing they know for sure is that the emergency release valve on the compressor blew. 

The high pressure sensor is just a "guess" and they don't know if it is bad or not.  It is possible that it is "fine" and the emerg. release valve was bad.  They are telling me to replace it anyway as "insurance" because if it IS bad then if they don't replace it the emerg. release valve will blow again and I will have to pay for another one.

Here is my concern.  The engine and the AC had been running for @ 1 minute when this happened.  I pulled out of my house and was 1/2 mile down the road when the emerg. release valve blew. 

They are telling me that is enough time for the compressor to over pressurize.  Does that sound "right"?

The Honda tech said he really doesn't think it is the fan, and it is a good idea to replace the high pressure switch "just in case" and I kinda agree w/ 'em there.

It is really, really "odd" to me that they convert my AC and then this happens 3 weeks later.  Something they did is the cause here (I suspect) but I have no way to prove it so I guess I am just out $200.00 more bucks and possible more.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
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Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline Dragon

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2010, 04:01:52 PM »
On that note, it sounds more like some kind of blockage in the system.  That may have taken care of itself when the valve blew, but if not, then it will happen again as soon as it's repaired. 


Tough call.
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Offline Tigger29

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2010, 05:38:51 PM »
WM, here's my take on what's going on.  First let me state that I am an ASE Certified Master Technician with over 15 years experience (including automotive HVAC systems).

First off, R134a (the new stuff) does not run the same pressures as R12 (the old stuff).  Since R134a is not as effective, it must run at higher pressures with more cooling at the condenser to achieve the same results.
Secondly, you need LESS OF A CHARGE with R134a than you did with R12.  If your system required 1.5lbs of R12, then after a conversion it should require about 1.1 to 1.2lbs of R134a.
Thirdly, the A/C compressor is capable of achieving a very high pressure ALMOST INSTANTLY.  Half a block of driving with the A/C is more than enough to over-pressurize the system... ESPECIALLY IN VERY HOT TEMPERATURES AND ESPECIALLY WITH A MALFUNCTIONING CONDENSER COOLING FAN.

Now let me educate you a bit about the pressure relief valve.  In the old days, cars' A/C systems used a mechanic 'blow-off' valve... this way if the pressure got too high for whatever reason, the valve would 'blow' to release the freon to keep the compressor, evaporator, lines, or condenser from literally 'blowing up'.  When the EPA deemed R12 freon to be 'bad for the environment' and 'illegal to manufacture in the US past 1994' they also required that all new automotive A/C systems and all old A/C systems retro-fitted to R134a to have an electrical high pressure switch.  This switch simply turns off the A/C compressor if the pressure gets too high, therefore eliminating the need for a mechanic blow-off valve.

Considering your system obviously had a 'blow off' valve, it may or may not have had an electrical high-pressure cutoff switch.  Most high-dollar retrofit kits (like the ones the dealers special order) usually come with this electrical switch, and it is usually installed on to the original system (leaving the original blow-off valve intact as well) but this switch is usually calibrated to shut off the compressor long before the blow off valve would go off.  The fact that your blow off valve DID go off tells me that there's a high chance that either this switch was not installed (as required).. or this switch was not wired in electrically.. or they used a switch that was incorrectly calibrated.  If you did have an electrical cut off switch before, most likely it was calibrated for R12.  Either way, it should have been verified to be functioning correctly before they released the car to you.

Likewise, if you had a malfunctioning condenser cooling fan, this should ALSO have been discovered before they released the car to you.  I should also note that a lot of the high-dollar retrofit kids INCLUDE a larger condenser fan (or a higher volume fan), but this varies depending on the year, make, and model of the vehicle to be retrofitted.  You need to find out exactly what was replaced during the retrofit service.

It's also possible that your blow-off valve simply failed due to age and that your A/C pressures never got high enough to cause a normally functioning blow-off valve to set, but since yours was bad it did.  This is also a possibility as since the temperature was cooler when they performed the retrofit, then the pressures would be lower as well and the malfunctioning blow off valve would not have been a problem at that time.  In this case it would be really hard to blame the repair shop (dealership) for this having happened... BUT if it were my shop and this all happened right after we performed those kinds of repairs to your vehicle, I would NOT HESITATE to fix this for you FOR FREE, regardless if I felt if was our fault or not... that is simple customer courtesy right there.

As for this being 'odd' or not.. I have to tell you from experience that these sorts of things happen more often than you would think, and the vast majority of the time it's really nobody's fault.  Like I said, the temperatures were cooler when they retrofitted it, and also you had a (for the most part) malfunctioning system in the first place.  They simply got the system up and running for you... but without it being a very warm day it's really hard to test the system to its limit.  It's kind of like shooting the hull of a tank with one round from a handgun, and claiming it's strong enough to endure battlefield damage...

Regardless, I sure hope they work something out with you... maybe at least charge you for only the cost of parts.. that way they don't lose money and everyone is happy, but dealerships tend to be a bit 'less forgiving' when it comes to that sort of thing.

I will add this.. the $20 retrofit kits you get from Autozone and the like come with only a small can of refrigerant, a charging hose, and a couple of universal fittings.  While this can be installed on many cars to get acceptable results, installing this kit alone on most R12 systems is probably not legal.  It is up to the consumer that the appropriate parts are purchased (and properly installed) in order to have an EPA legal automotive HVAC system.  Not trying to be a party-pooper here... I'm just trying to educate you guys who may or may not know better.

Offline WMLute

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2010, 08:23:44 PM »
I used the Honda part for the conversion and I can only trust that they guys @ the dealership did it all the right way.

The parts they are replacing is the high pressure switch AND the emerg. release valve so I guess even converted it has both.

I found a Honda Service Bulletin from when they originally started doing conversions and the part # they billed me for matches what is on the Service Bulletin to convert my model Honda to R-134 so they used what Honda recommends.

I noticed on the bulletin that they do indeed have to put in less R-134 and I can only hope they put in the proper amount.  I asked about this and they said that overcharging the system would just make the compressor not run and would not cause this.

They are being pretty good about it all and what they are charging me for this is much lower than the 3 other Honda dealers in my area would.  (I called and checked and they were all @ $350)

It could very well be age that caused this and that is why I am not jumping up/down insisting they fix it for free.  Lets face it, this is an older car and things wear out over time.  (I will add that this car has been perfectly maintained and this is the first time I have had to put a dime into it other than scheduled maint. and one muffler)

They did (supposedly) a full diagnosis of the AC system when they converted it.  At least, according to my bill I PAYED for one.  I am gonna be TICKED if the fan is broken and they didn't catch that 3 weeks ago when they converted it.  They told me the system checked out perfect before they did the conversion.

They guy who did the work is one of their most senior techs and per. the Service Manager is one of their best guys.  (not that they would tell me he sucked)

I appreciate the advice and I hope it turns out to just be a bad release valve.  
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 08:27:34 PM by WMLute »
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline fuzeman

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Re: Car Guys (specificially converted AC)
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 12:13:30 AM »
Probably a little too late now but...http://www.cartalk.com/content/features/second-opinion/ 

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