Author Topic: K4 advise break turn reversals  (Read 1631 times)

Offline papjohns

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K4 advise break turn reversals
« on: May 29, 2010, 01:18:02 PM »
Good morning,

I am sitting here on the Santa Cruz pier with my coffee and my iPhone and
have been thinking abouut ah2...I know truely pathetic. Anyways,
I would like some more k4 advise...

Been recently using a move that works on 60% of the pilots and would like
opinions on what to do in the other 40% of the cases. I essentially will set the guy
up on my six, and he will usually co e screaming in at wep and full
power...I'll breAk Turn With full rudder and chop my throttle..
He'll overshoot and as soon as he overshoots I barrel roll o. His six...
Cool part is I find it works on even the turniest of planes.

For example see this (I fly as meatball in this film):
 
http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tzyindzie42

it's the fight vs the spit and strts at about 8 Mins...this is the successful
version :)

ok now...sometimes after I barrel roll on the guy he will go into
rolling scissors and I invariably will die, this seems to hold true especially
for corsairs and jugs...

In tht case should I follow the guy Intto the scissors, or is it best just to extend
out and reset? Sorry for some of the spelling mistakes..as I said I am using my iPhone
thanks in advance.
out and reset?

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tzyindzie42
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 01:21:03 PM by papjohns »
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2010, 01:25:05 PM »
If you can extend away from a Hog your going to need to or your going to have a heck of a fight especially against a good Hog pilot. I use a similar reverse in all planes. I use it so I get planes into rolling scissors because it is harder for people to extend away. I suggest getting rolling scissors down better in the K4, learn how to get that nose around in stalls to get shots off in them, all the good 109 pilots do.
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Offline mtnman

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2010, 09:55:33 PM »
If you're the one being attacked from above/behind, and you lose in the rolling scissors, I'd first think about refining your technique in the scissors. 

For one, I wonder if maybe you're holding a lead pursuit, when it needs to be lag.  For another, I'd wonder if you're not able to seal the deal quick enough, and lose out due to that.  If you get into a long, drawn out rolling scissors, the hog will probably prevail.

If you're being attacked, and your barrel roll turns into a rolling scissors, IMO you generally begin with an advantage.  He's faster, and was closing on you, so it shouldn't be too difficult to force him out front (he was headed there anyway...). 

In a K4, you also have the option to extend out of the scissors while you're nose down, and he's nose up.  You have better acceleration, and should be able to pull away, as long as you don't dive away.  Just dive enough to get initial separation, then come back up to level flight, and then begin to climb.  If the hog was rolling/getting slow, there's no way he'll be able to climb with you unless you pull up too steeply and give him the option to "cut across the corner".  If you dive out too far and allow the hog to dive as well (building his speed), and then make things worse by pulling up too quickly, he'll kill you though.
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Offline Big Rat

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #3 on: May 29, 2010, 10:03:06 PM »
If we look specifically at Jugs and Hogs (-4 not included). what trait does the K4 have a huge advantage over these two aircraft.  Accelleration and climb.  Hogs and Jugs are both slow to accellerate and neither is any sort of exceptional climber.  While the K4 is great at both.  So your best bet with either aircraft is a quick dodge and extend.  Use your accelleration and climb to get some seperation, and then start working the fight verticle, with the important thing of not letting the hog or jug get it's nose down. Also be patient, and wait for your shot, if you keep them fighting up long enough it will be there.  I just kinda repeated mtnman, but I was already done typing when it said "warning" :lol

 :salute
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2010, 05:06:58 PM »
IT will only go into the rolling scissors if you let it.

Once he overshoots and you are on his six you have to stay there.  If your E state is less. If He turns real hard because he over shot and is trying to reaquier you. His E state will drop real quick. The problem i had was not seeing this and was just overshooting him on the very next roll.

Choice one if you stay with the rolling scissors make sure you chop throtle just enough to stay behind him and keep your lift vector greater that his.

#2 Put your plane in the vert on the as soon as you miss the shot. Let him get out in front a bit then roll inverted and come back on his six. If he comes up with you in the vert keep you nose up as long as you can. First ones nose to drop is dead man. You may have to spiral climb a wee bit to keep out of guns and bleed more energy.

Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2010, 05:40:37 PM »
Quote
If you're the one being attacked from above/behind
I try and spot a diving plane about 1k out, then I try to bait them into a Barrel roll defensive move if they have more 'e'. Esp with the k4 where you can get the snap shot and kill them.
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Offline Creton

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2010, 06:06:10 PM »
just gotta out  :airplane: them,just twist hard on your  :joystick:

Offline Ardy123

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2010, 06:15:29 PM »
just gotta out  :airplane: them,just twist hard on your  :joystick:

Creton, we gotta da some again, its been a while.
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Offline Agent360

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2010, 08:33:13 PM »

Been recently using a move that works on 60% of the pilots and would like
opinions on what to do in the other 40% of the cases. I essentially will set the guy
up on my six, and he will usually co e screaming in at wep and full
power...I'll breAk Turn With full rudder and chop my throttle..
He'll overshoot and as soon as he overshoots I barrel roll o. His six...
Cool part is I find it works on even the turniest of planes.


In this scenario its always a gamble on "who" is actually being set up.

As you describe if I was behind you I would be setting you up...I am hoping and expecting you to break turn and pull a typical barrel roll. I am going to put you in in a verticle rolling scissors FIRST.....meaning the moment I spot you roll I will cut throttle and pull up slightly...the moment I spot your barrel roll I will go strait vert and roll into you forcing you to go nose up either in your barrell roll or right after you finish. I will stay nosed up and scissor climbing. When you drop I will drop in after and we will be rolling scissors with me behind you chunking taters at your every turn.

The proper way to do the move you describe:
Bait to your six....going strait...give no sighn of your intentions.
At 2k with the bandit closing, make an easy obvious turn to the RIGHT. ( this makes the bandit take lead for a shot and follow instead of extending)
at 1k Reduce throttle quickly (not chopping) and pull into a hard FLAT G turn. This turn will put the bandit into lag because he can't follow it.
Pull it around enough to keep the bandit coming in. If he exits the deal is off...you extend and shallow climb. and start it again.
At 600 roll flat and pull up strait verticle. (this is not a barrel roll)
Push throttle on, flaps, nose forward, full left rudder and stall the nose over.
The bandit will be below you pullin up..but its to late for him now...
Take the shot.
If you miss immediatly get your nose up to horizontal, pick up speed and go vert again. If you did all this correctly you will be on top and can begin taking nose down shots as you pass his side or top of his canopy. You should be in a superior position with guns on every pass while you are stalling over and he is trying to avoid your guns.
If you screw up and overshoot going nose down don't try to out flat turn...just keep on truckin and go to a shallow climb...if you are brave you can time the extension so that the bandit still want to stay with you and you can bait him again.


The ONLY reason this tactic works is if you create closure for the bandit the WHOLE TIME. Second you are actually reaching maximum corner speed BEFORE he does. You want to corner in the flat G turn. This keeps the bandit salivating and engaged but at a distance he can not escape from without a fight if he tries to exit.


« Last Edit: June 04, 2010, 08:38:31 PM by Agent360 »

Offline papjohns

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2010, 05:00:18 AM »
In this scenario its always a gamble on "who" is actually being set up.

As you describe if I was behind you I would be setting you up...I am hoping and expecting you to break turn and pull a typical barrel roll. I am going to put you in in a verticle rolling scissors FIRST.....meaning the moment I spot you roll I will cut throttle and pull up slightly...the moment I spot your barrel roll I will go strait vert and roll into you forcing you to go nose up either in your barrell roll or right after you finish. I will stay nosed up and scissor climbing. When you drop I will drop in after and we will be rolling scissors with me behind you chunking taters at your every turn.

The proper way to do the move you describe:
Bait to your six....going strait...give no sighn of your intentions.
At 2k with the bandit closing, make an easy obvious turn to the RIGHT. ( this makes the bandit take lead for a shot and follow instead of extending)
at 1k Reduce throttle quickly (not chopping) and pull into a hard FLAT G turn. This turn will put the bandit into lag because he can't follow it.
Pull it around enough to keep the bandit coming in. If he exits the deal is off...you extend and shallow climb. and start it again.
At 600 roll flat and pull up strait verticle. (this is not a barrel roll)
Push throttle on, flaps, nose forward, full left rudder and stall the nose over.
The bandit will be below you pullin up..but its to late for him now...
Take the shot.
If you miss immediatly get your nose up to horizontal, pick up speed and go vert again. If you did all this correctly you will be on top and can begin taking nose down shots as you pass his side or top of his canopy. You should be in a superior position with guns on every pass while you are stalling over and he is trying to avoid your guns.
If you screw up and overshoot going nose down don't try to out flat turn...just keep on truckin and go to a shallow climb...if you are brave you can time the extension so that the bandit still want to stay with you and you can bait him again.


The ONLY reason this tactic works is if you create closure for the bandit the WHOLE TIME. Second you are actually reaching maximum corner speed BEFORE he does. You want to corner in the flat G turn. This keeps the bandit salivating and engaged but at a distance he can not escape from without a fight if he tries to exit.




Thanks; I'll try this (bolded part, the rest I was doing already).

Papa
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Offline mbailey

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2010, 06:16:41 AM »
Good morning,

I am sitting here on the Santa Cruz pier with my coffee and my iPhone and
have been thinking abouut ah2...I know truely pathetic. 


Not to hijack the thread, but this actually sounds kinda nice, not pathetic at all  :aok
Mbailey
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Offline Agent360

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2010, 06:37:26 PM »

Thanks; I'll try this (bolded part, the rest I was doing already).

Papa

It sounded like you were doing a standard hard break to barrel roll reversal. This does work but you get a quick snap shot as they go by and thats it. They will have the energy to just extend away and you will be a sitting duck for another BZ pass.

I always try to bait them in instead of just break turning. BUT if there are other cons around with alt I just break out and try to find airspace I can re set without getting jumped over and over by new cons.

The trick is to bait them in with a wide turn that gets tighter by the second until they have commited and burned most of their energy. Again the trick is to draw them in close in this turn by keeping them pulling for lead. If you just barrel roll at this point it goes to rolling scissors at a slower speed.....which is where the hogs and such will get you with their flaps.

You have to pull the verticle move as they are pulling for guns but are in lag pursuit.

Offline papjohns

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 07:17:52 PM »
Gotcha; and I know exactly what u are saying now :) (did I mention I had a guy BNZ me as you described with 6 seperate passes today and then he finally ran home; it was fun for 20 seconds then got boring quick).

Bleed'em then kill'em. The first part should be easy enough...:)  :x
« Last Edit: June 06, 2010, 07:41:08 PM by papjohns »
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Offline TheRapier

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2010, 01:48:15 PM »
Just to add a last bit that I didn't see explicitly mentioned in the thread. The whole point of a rolling scissors is to slow your absolute forward movement relative to the other guy.

Essentially, you are both doing spirals. If you just look at the forward movement and not the up and down, left and right, it is the rate of movement in the direction forward you are controlling and reducing. It's important to say that your airplane is not going slower because that kills E.

If you both move in the forward direction at the same pace, its neutral and nobody wins. You are trying to move forward slower while keeping up your E (usually by putting more of your motion into the vertical than the other guy, perfect set up for the K4). This is why as MtnMan said, you are in lag pursuit. If you were in lead pursuit, you'd be slinging yourself out in front of him (bad place to be, that's where the guns are :)). The sharper the break at the top, the more you can aim behind him, until hes out in front. You are starting a race you want to lose, that is end up behind him in the spiral so you can shoot.

Hope that helps.
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Offline TnDep

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Re: K4 advise break turn reversals
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2010, 07:54:16 AM »
I know this isn't the most pretty maneuver but I like to do vertical flat scissors in the k4 - one I can't hit w/30mm as much as I'd like - two if I get my opponent slow and put the piper on them were good.  I found it to be pretty effective for me at times.
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