Reasons NOT to have jet fighters- other ramblings too

[Urchin]

Well, to begin with, I am against having jet fighters in the game.  Although I know they will come in if HTC deems it so, and the vast majority of players seem to support it, I think it is a bad idea, for a few reasons.

1.  The conditions that prompted their existance do NOT exist in the MA.  The german jet fighters were designed to attack large formations of bombers, moving in one direction, at high altitude.  The largest formation I have ever seen, personally, in the MA, was about 12 B-17s with fighter escort.  They were on the deck, in an attempt to make a NOE raid.  The raid was shot to pieces (but it was hella fun, that was pretty cool).  Nine times out of ten, bombers fly in "formations" of less than 3 bombers.  Probably eight times out of ten, it is a solo bomber, with no escort.  A jet fighter would be absolutely useless against a single bomber, its speed would literally work against it.  The bomber would have no problem manuevering out of the line of attack, the jet would be merely a nuisance.  The jet could slow down to 250 mph, but it would wallow like a pig, and it would be quite vulnerable to not only the buff, but to any enemy fighters that happened to wander by.  Since the jet fighters would (more than likely) be very expensive perk-wise, I don't think anyone would take a chance and slow down to the point where they could manuever with the bomber.

2.  Since the Germans would have jets, which of course everyone would think were "super leet" (even though they are in actuality quite useless), the Allies would press for more advanced planes with which to run the jets down with.  These planes would be the 1945-1946 planes that never saw action (with the exception of the 47n [or M, can't remember].  So the customers that enjoy flying non-allied planes would be relegated to flying obsolete planes, much like "early-war" planes that are in the set right now.  While it is quite likely that these new planes would be perked as well, they would not be as heavily perked as the jet fighters, even though they would still be quite useful in the MA.  I think this would lead to more than a little frustration amoung us "limpwristed Luftwhiners", and possibly some others as well.

I'll have to add more numbers later, I can't think of any right now.  Feel free to add your comments for or against jet fighters, or anything else.

On a totally unrelated note (well, not really, since it came to me while typing this out)- I want to ask a question.  For all the gnashing of teeth over the number of planes per country, why does it really matter?  The Japanese "plane-set" consists of 3 planes- only 1 of which sees a lot of regular use.  I am sure I don't have to tell you which one.  The Russian plane-set consists of 3 planes, only 1 of which sees any regular use (though the Yak is catching on, I've been flying it a little myself- nice plane).  The British plane-set consists of .. hum. Help me out here- 6 planes?  7?  Again, only one of which sees any regular use.  Taken together, those 3 plane sets have 3 of the 6 most often used planes in the game, not to shabby as far as I am concerned.  Anyways, to continue.  The Germans have 9 planes (I think), only 2 of them see any regular use.  The Americans have a bunch to (9 as well?), only one of which sees a lot of use- unless you count in the C-Hog, then it would be two.  Actually, the D hog sees a fair amount of use as well, so maybe we can say 2 American planes, and 3 with the C-hog.  

As far as "diversity" goes- that is a fat load of garbage as far as I am concerned.  There will be no diversity in the MA - EVER.  Actually, that is not *quite* true.  You will always have individuals who enjoy flying a particular plane, because they happen to like the plane.  I know that is why I fly the LW birds - not because they are the best at anything, but because for some odd reason I enjoy flying them.  I am sure the same holds true for probably 1% of the MA population.  The other 99% fly a plane because it is the "best" at something (and this is pure supposition, not grounded in scientific fact at all).  I can divide the population of the MA into 3 groups-

1. The Spits- The "best" turners.
2. The P51D,G10, and D9 - the "best" runners.
3. The Niki crowd - the "best" mix, in other words, the "best" or "most superior" plane there is, in the plane set.  The C-Hog crowd fits into this category as well, before the perking of the plane.

The 1% that I see as different I'm not even going to bother to classify, as I am not sure that I could.  And before someone brings it up- yes, you can look at my stats.  I DO have 20 kills in the Niki (I flew it for 2 days at the beginning of the tour, once I got tired of them shooting me down).  I DO have about 20 kills in the 109G10.  However, I don't RUN in the plane as is so common with G10,D9, and 51D pilots.
Furthermore, I DO have 30ish kills in the 190a8, which is hardly a common plane in the arena, and if you look at last tours stats, you'll see I flew the 190a5 and the 190a8 the vast majority of the time.

What I don't understand is why people think that adding different planes will add "diversity" to the MA- I don't think it will.  Unless the new plane is faster than a G10,D9, or 51D; turns better than a spit, or can kill 80% of enemy planes 1v1 regardless of E state or pilot skill, it won't be used by 99% of the people in the MA.

Anyways, the time for my rambling has come to an end.  I welcome all comments, and I <S> anyone that read through the whole thing.  If you have something to say, whether you agree or disagree, let me know.  Nothing makes me feel better than a long thread that I started (makes me feel important, hehe   ) <S> all, g'night.

[Naso]

Good points.

<S>!

 

[10Bears]

Urchin,

  Question: How am I going to write "New Years Day" without the Arado and 262?

These ac mostly used for events.

In the main I take perk rides up sometimes its cool. Sometimes you need a 262 to go after buffs attacking your HQ. Relax.. You won't see alot of jets.
10Bears

[StSanta]

Heh exchange "LA-7" for "G-10" and I'm with you.

I see a lot of LA-7's running, but not so many 109s.

Then again, I do not encounter many 109s.

[straffo]

Originally posted by StSanta:

Then again, I do not encounter many 109s.

change side  

[AKDejaVu]

The Japanese "plane-set" consists of 3 planes- only 1 of which sees a lot of regular use.

The Zeke sees alot of action too.  It is used more than either of the LW leaders.  Remember... don't just look at kills... look at deaths too.  Ironically, the Ki-61 has the best K/D of the group.

 

The Japanese "plane-set" consists of 3 planes- only 1 of which sees a lot of regular use.

Once again, the Yak-9U is virtually identical to the Dora in fighter kills.  I imagine the dora will beat it in bomber kills <just checked.. it does 253 to 126>, but really matches it in K/D and total kills against fighters.

 

The British plane-set consists of .. hum. Help me out here- 6 planes? Again, only one of which sees any regular use.

The SpitV is used considerably too... its the 5th most popular plane right now.  It also leads both of the LW planes.

 

The Germans have 9 planes (I think), only 2 of them see any regular use.

Not really "regular use".. though two are used more than the others.  Ironically... its the fastest 109 and fastest 190 that get used the most.  Though... I'm sure nobody using these planes has ever uttered the word "runstang".  

 

The Americans have a bunch to (9 as well?), only one of which sees a lot of use- unless you count in the C-Hog, then it would be two. Actually, the D hog sees a fair amount of use as well, so maybe we can say 2 American planes, and 3 with the C-hog.

Actually... there would be 5 planes.  The F6F-5 and P-38L are used just as much as the LW planes, though they don't really get as many kills.  Once again.. don't forget to look at the deaths column.

I kinda think that directly reflects the primary demographics of the game.

 

As far as "diversity" goes- that is a fat load of garbage as far as I am concerned. There will be no diversity in the MA - EVER.

Out of 160 kills, I've killed 40 different types of aircraft.  How much more diverse do you want?

BTW Urchin.. I couldn't help but notice that in all your wanderings (onesy twosy tries of aircrafts)... you seldomely tried the lesser used planes from any country.  Were you expecting everyone else to provide this diversity  

Fly what you like, like what you fly.

AKDejaVu

[ 07-12-2001: Message edited by: AKDejaVu ]

[Creamo]

I don't know what impact if at all a 262 would bring. Someone has perk points and maybe they will use them, I sure dont have any.

Actually, I have seen 2 perk planes this tour. 1 jetbomber thing, and a Tempest that I snuck up on and actually killed.

The cost of the current planes keeps them out of reach for me, lord knows Ill never get a 262.

Besides, would you rather have a fleet of 9 shiny blue cannon equipped F4UC's, or one goofy looking TA152>?

[Bodhi]

1.  As for jets being unmaneuverable, and wallowing like pigs... well the He-162, maneuvers quite well at speeds of 250 - 350, as does the 262, although the turn radius is not the same.  

2.  You should also take into account the fact that there were other jets besides the german ones on the scene at the same time during the war.  Dehavilland's Dh100 MkI Vampire was flying in early 1943, with production started in '44.  Gloster's Meteor was seeing combat against the buzz bombs in 44.  As was the P-80 in 1945.

3.  Regardless of the perk point cost of the aircraft, there is no precedence for keeping them out.  They definitely should be added as an option for those who desire to fly them.  The only counter I can see is that it will force those who like to be bop on up into the stratosphere to keep there eyes better peeled as a 560 knot jet comes screaming by.  And even at those speeds, with 4 - 30mm cannons, I need one pass on a buff, and it is dead.  

So as far as I am concerned, let there be jets, and let there be a better fully balanced perk sytem, and we will see what happens in the MA, I am sure more interesting plane usage for sure.

[Seeker]

Whilst I'm keen to see AH expand towards earlier rather than later planes, I still don't agree with your statement.

Actually, your objections of the 262 v. buffs apply equally to a Zeke. How in the world do you hit one? And the longer you try, the more it's sucking your hard to regain E. We had the 262 in AW, on occasion; I loved it, both for and against. Flown right (and it's much, much harder than a Ta-152) and you're unkillable. Flown wrong, you're dead quicker than a gooney. And that's with AW's plane set...

Further more, there were other roles than soley hi-alt fighter predicted for the 262, Hitler's obdurate insistance it should be a Jabo being well known.

Additionaly, there were other jets of the era. The Meteor is the best known of the 262's contemporaries,and actualy saw service; but the Jappanese were working on their version of the 262 by the wars end, and I beleive the P80 was flying by '45.

I'm still hoping for the Hurricane; but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like a jet too.

Hopefully, given enough time, HTC will model just about anything that flew from the birth of flight to the present day; at which point we'll definately be looking at either rolling plane sets or seperate arenas; but note this doesn't explicitly imply historic gameplay.

[lazs1]

I do not believe that the "vast majority" of players want the 262 in the game.  I believe the opposite is true

The 262 would not be "quite useless" in the MA.  In WB on jet day it was a real drag for anyone not flying em.   sure... u could avoid em but you spent your whole time avoiding jets and on occassion getting vultched when you weren't paying attention.  Killing em was just luck or a really stupid mistake on their part.   No one ever fought a jet in WB unless it was with another jet.  u either avoided em or got luck or they got rally stupid.   How fun is that?

To get some use out of a lot of the planes in the current and future AH we will have to go to some kind of RPS or "area" arena.  It's that simple.   The idiotic perk system only works in the negative.   It can prevent people from flying specific planes but all the problems it tried to solve remain.
lazs

[Nifty]

Actually, my desire to have fleshed out planesets for each country is related directly to the Snapshots, Chk 6, and multiframe events.  As long as I see more than one or two plane types in the MA, I'm happy with that.  The MA should remain fly what you want.  The change I'd like to see are perk points reduced for the Ta152, Arado and Tempest.  The CHog perk point isn't that much, IMO, and the perk served the purpose of making it a little less common in the MA. It's still out there though.  

[john9001]

i'm not sure where you fly , but i see people flying all types of planes, also i turn fight with my pee51, sometimes i even win

44MAG

[Karnak]

I'm getting tired of watching the MA get faster and faster.  Not only is that making it nearly impossible to enjoy aircraft like the Zero, but it will make aircraft that were successful in reality sitting ducks in the MA.  The Tu-2 and Mosquito FB.VI were both very successful low-to-mid altitude strike aircraft, but that was against Fw190As and Bf109G-6s.  Since most aircraft you'll run into in AH can do 370-400mph at those altitudes, both of them would be easy prey at their mediocre 345mph.

There is, unfortunately, no fast aircraft in AH that I really enjoy flying.  The best of the lot is the Fw190D-9, but that is far lower on my list than things like the Spitfire, Zero and, hopefully in the future, Mosquito.
However, I find myself flying the Fw190D-9 more and just to compete with the speed that is now standard in the MA.

If we absolutely must have jet fighters, please, please let it not start with the Me262.  Let the first two, introduced simultaneously, be the He162A and the Meteor MkIII so that we may have something new.

[Staga]

Me-262 was a legend, Just like Me-109, P-51D, Spitfires etc.
Without it any game having later war planes isn't complete.

[SirLoin]

Don't know why people think N1K2(Hey,got it right for once Pyro)..) is such a super plane..For me,my Spit does everything better except run(which they usually try to do in the end but too late)and kills them everytime.262's will make a nice perk ride too except nobody will use them like they were meant to..ie..bomber intercept.Who would risk 100 perks(my guess) on closing on a b17?Great for scenarios I would guess.Maybe if they had something like a graded cost system,where if you were ranked in the top 100(half cost),top 50(1/4 cost),top 10(free ride..most 262 Pilots were LW elite,this would add incentive and immersion imho)..<Salutes!>