An arena for 20-25% of current AH users?

[Badger]

Based upon a couple of very fun sessions here on AH, plus a few years of exclusively flying the HA, SL's and S3 in WB, here are are some personal thoughts to agree or disagree upon, when the SEA is set-up as an optimal advanced or HA (Historical Arena).

It would be nice to have:

Killshooter OFF

Icons:
Friendlies: D5.0 or less (Aircraft Type ONLY)
Enemy: D3.0 or less (Aircraft Type ONLY) (Optionally consider having RANGE to start  scrolling at under 1,000 yards)

Arena arranged for two countries ONLY.

Appropriate aircraft types disabled for each side, leaving only that country's correct aircraft available for selection in the hanger.

Radar active around air fields from the ground (tower) only.  NO radar available in-flight, including sector bars.

Now for my problem.  I've spent a huge amount of time using the Arena Configuration options under Set-up to try and get as close to the above as possible.  I must be doing something very wrong, or is the current state of the AH software not quite capable of accomplishing the above?

Can anyone tell me definitively what works and doesn't work in these AH arena settings?

Regards,
Badger


[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-17-2000).]

[StSanta]

Badger, one question, weren't fighters vectored towards enemy contacts by ground radar personell? The bar simulates this in a way, so it should (IMHO) be included.



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StSanta
II/JG2

[Badger]

Hi StSanta....

An excellent question.  You know, I'm probably more ignorant on the subject than anyone who frequents these forums.

I would defer to guys like FunkedUp and a whole bunch of other really smart WWII aficionados, who probably have the answer at their fingertips.

I have no firm attachment to anything I said in my first message, except for perhaps wanting Killshooter OFF for more realism, so that we just don't start spraying and praying when up close and personal.

It is simply apparent to me from the postings on here, but more so, the actual strong numbers that show up to try this type of set-up in an informal half-a&% sort of way, that the interest in an alternative arena with less chaos in motion, definitely exists within the current AH community.  I happen to believe also, that if the word got out (marketing) about this type of arena, it would provide HTC with incremental revenue they don't get today.  The reciprocal arena paradigm also applies to the low end market, similar to the WB ACA.

I'll follow whatever you guys want to do, but I want to do something other than simply fly around the MA waiting for new 'toys' of each iterative version of AH.

Regards,
Badger

[lazs]

badger, you may be right on the icons.   At a flat rate tho, turning kllshooter off could be a disaster... who knows?  

Radar vectoring was a big factor in the war.   2 countries with appropriate plane sets?   From other sim experiance i can tell you that it can get very old and stale very quickly.   No one wants to be on the low end of the tech. ladder so that leaves a very narrow time frame(s)/planeset(s) where parity is achieved... These narrow time frames and extremely restricted planesets result in very few and easily learned, workable, tactics.

Lack of numbers and lack of strat, lack of "forced" missions all compound the problem.  Lone wolf and non "historical" missions are not addressed.   Fear of death or reward/penalty systems combined with small numbers result in very few engagements per hour.  

If that were the case... I believe that even the 20% figure u use would drop off within a short time.   Perhaps tho, the different FM's in AH would change some of these things?  would be worth a try I suppose.
lazs

[Westy]

 Laz, flat rate has nothing to do with it. That the "two week free testers" can fly in the same arenas does. .

  -Westy

[Mighty1]

Never had a good experience with killshooter off.

I've been in arenas with it off and it always ends up some dweeb killing his own then everyone having to spend their time killing him.

The rest of the stuff I can agree with.

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Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"

[Badger]

Good observations lazs.....

I know what you mean about the staleness.  I have found that the 109 modeling over here is different than WB and they seem to be much more competitive.  The Spit 9 here also doesn't seem to have the uber capabilities that I experienced with it in WB.  In other words, the play balance between the allies and LW seems much better here than I was used to in a WB's HA environment.  There, as a member of JG27, I spent more time simply trying to survive in 109's against allied aircraft, than really being offensive.  I noticed that here last night, the 109's were a force to be reckoned with, but these are only subjective conclusions based upon limited experience with this plane set.

As far as killshooter being OFF and attracting some real strange characters into the environment because of flat rate, it can't be any worse than the current MA.  I doubt we'll see too many actually want to come into a limited icon world, but I could be wrong.  Maybe this arena is only available for access after they actually sign-up instead of immediately as a two week freebie, where they can hide behind anonymity and create havoc.  As you said "Who knows?", but if it doesn't work, we could always just turn it ON again. Heck, if it moves the yardsticks along here, let's start with it ON.  

It is possible that the ONLY real value in what I posted is the ICON reduction concept, which obviously is not my original idea.  Perhaps the rest of the set-up would ultimately be a burn-out thing once the novelty wears off, just as too much of a chaotic MA is for some of us now.  Food for thought.

I have no illusions that in trying something new we won't make mistakes, but, show me a man who has never made a mistake and I'll show you someone who has never accomplished anything.

Thanks again for the feedback.

Regards,
Badger


[This message has been edited by Badger (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Vermillion]

Westy, what Laz meant was that flate rate may actually increase the possibility of a successful HA.

Over in WB's, when you pay $/hr, in their HA, its not very popular to have to fly quite a while to get to where the enemy MIGHT be, and then maybe get into a fight or not. And everything else that can happen in an "no icon" environment you guys are discussing.

To be honest, all these discussions about icons, historical matchup arena's and such, are not new in the least. Almost every single one has been tried in WB's HA arena.

And if you look objectively at that arena and its history, most would say its been a dismal failure.

But again, to each their own.

Edit: Please realize I am not against an HA arena concept in its own right. My only concern is splitting off a segment of the population, when the game itself hasn't really reached a "critical mass" of players yet.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-17-2000).]

[Badger]

 

Originally posted by Vermillion:

.......And if you look objectively at that arena and its history, most would say its been a dismal failure.

But again, to each their own.

Hi Vermillion....

Hmmm, I guess things must have really gone downhill in the last 6 months at iEN.  When I flew the HA a lot back in middle of 1999, RAM1 and VERT were running some really good alternating environments.  They had Pacific War, Russian Front, European Theater etc and the attendance I experienced was upwards of 40-60 per night.  Granted, due to business reasons, I had to stop flying a lot but I didn't realize that it deteriorated so much.  With all due respect, I think a statement that it was a dismal failure is incorrect and the objective empirical data wouldn't support that.  It might be worth looking at the archives at AGW to see a lot of posts about how vibrant it was starting to become with the CM leadership provided by those two.

If your conclusions are based upon more recent history and it's changed since then, it's unfortunate.  Have RAM1 and VERT stopped running it?  I was kind of looking forward to going back over there more and picking up with it again, so your news is kind of saddening.  The only problem we experienced were bugs in the WB code and terrain that caused the entire arena to crash.  For example, if one bombed a factory in Berlin, the arena collapsed.  I know that was frustrating to users and caused blips in attendance because of the iEN unreliability of the environment, but I don't remember it being due to a lack of enthusiasm or support from the players.  It is a fact that iEN's Pay for Play revenue is down $44,000 in the first quarter of this year versus last year, so perhaps it's more than just the type of arena venue that's a problem.

Your point about flat rate is also very important.  With that paradigm, it doesn't matter how long it takes to get organized or get to the fight.  At $1.99/hour, that can be quite frustrating and a deterrent to realistic type play.

If RAM1 is lurking, I'd like to hear his take on this?

Regards,
Badger

[Vermillion]

Nope Badger I'm speaking of the track record of the HA from day one to when I switched over to AH, and from other players post on AGW from then to now.

Maybe we just disagree on what a "success" is, but 30 people average on the weekend evenings, and 10 average or less any other time, is far from successful in my mind. Especially with the large size of WB's player base.

Sure there were times when a particularly popular matchup bumped up the attendance for a few days, but overall attendance is very poor.

Oh and then there were times when the main arena would crash and all the HA regulars would get pissed caused the "Dweebs" invaded their arena  

And even during times of decent attendance, it was usually extremely lopsided sides, with people flocking to the side that had the aircraft advantage. And Pacific theater setups were particularly bad about this.

The WB's HA had brief moments of brillance, but unfortunately never reach a "critical mass" of players.

Just my opinon of course, but if you go read all the HA posts on AGW, you will see that even many HA regulars agree with this opinon.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[lazs]

badg... verm is correct IMO.   The WB HA has been nicknamed the "Hope for Action" arena and is for the most part deserted or shut down.

I am new to AH but think you may be correct on the parity of the various planes in the set.  this is a good thing IMO and may prolong the interest in an AH "historical" arena.   It will of course still be somewhat limiting.  Which brings us to another reality that I find interesting...

The planes in AH seem to me to be very well matched parity wise but.... They are all from the same basic mid/early-late time period.  Any additions to the planeset would seem to be either unbalancing, -4 Hog Spit14 late model P47 335 etc... or, ignored because they are not competitive... Zero, P40, mig 1, f4f, Spit 1 and hurri etc.

It will be very interesting to see how AH handles this very thorny problem.
lazs

[weazel]

 

but unfortunately never reach a "critical mass" of players.

 I don`t understand these critical mass references and why they have any bearing on whether we use the SEA as an inpromptu H/A.
 
 If you guys in the M/A have 60+ players and we have 20+ in the H/A and both are having fun it seems like a win-win situation for HTC.

 Having the H/A arena may draw more customers to the game based on comments I`ve seen on AGW,it definately will keep the interest of those of us bored with the fantasy arena who otherwise might not stay.

[funked]

I'd rather see range at 3000 yds (3.0k).
Type at 2000 yds.
No range inside 1000 yds (no gunnery help).

Lazs has a good point about killshooter - there are a few people on the "free trial" who would kill friendlies, either because they didn't know they were friendlies, or because they were just mean bastards.

[funked]

BTW Lazs, between my squad (15 guys) and JG 2 (30+ guys) I think we'd have no problem keeping it going.  

[Vermillion]

Weazel , what I mean by critical mass is that the arena has enough players already in it to draw other players into it.

Right now, when you schedule a special "no icon" event people show up. No problems there.

But what happens when its there every day. Its not so special anymore, and people will start coming in at different times of day, and whenever they get the time, like for typical MA pilots and flying time.

You login in to the arena selection screen, and you see 3 people in the HA, and 75 in the MA. Even if that person likes the HA, they're more likely to go fly in the MA just because they're more likely to find a fight there.

I don't know how many times over on AGW, the HA guys would ask why no one was flying in the HA, and others would answer "because no one was there", and several others would reply "well if you were there, I would be there".

But not matter how many times the subject came up, the players could never sustain enough of a player base in the HA, to draw enough other players in there too sustain it.

If you guys want to fly a HA event in the SEA, go ahead, I have no arguement with that.   I was just addressing the concept of a full time historical arena, and its potential viability as related to WB's.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"