Author Topic: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)  (Read 1269 times)

Offline AApache

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 454
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #30 on: June 11, 2010, 08:30:02 AM »
Everyone says M4 armor is crap !!  I agree in real history it was but dadgumit in here if it doesn't take me 10 direct hits to destroy one. I shot a darn M$ 11 times full flush in the side and nothingg. He turns his damn turret as I'm steady plugging him full side shots and shoots me once and I'm dead !!!  TIGER what .... TIGER  who ?  To add insult to injury I upped just to see ....  I got behind a M4 shoot him in his arse directly in fuel tank 3 times and nothing !!!  AGAIN he turns turret while I'm sitting dazed in awe and cunfused and puts 1... I repeat only 1 round into ME and I'm dead !!

I love Gv'ing but theres something terribly wrong with GV damage model !
"WE WEREN'T ASSIGNED WE WERE REQUESTED"....Lt.Col.Benjamin O. Davis of the Tuskegee Airmen 

https://youtu.be/B2sDNT91Rzw

https://youtu.be/KaufhZv84Gk

Offline Lepape2

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 597
      • YouTube musician/video channel
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #31 on: June 11, 2010, 11:43:52 AM »
Last week we were capturing a GV base and a Tiger was defending it right in the middle. We overwhelmed the base so much as we have been able to capture it with the tiger still 100% operational (he had vehicle supplies). Friendly ack starts shooting at him, he destroys all of it. Then all 3 VHs are down, ords and radar. An M4 was lobbing shells at him 50yards away for a good 2minutes as well as a T-34 from 0.7k. Bot got shot by that Tiger. After 10minutes protecting the airspace, I gave up finally witnessing the slaying of that tank and went home. On the way back, assist.

Everyone of our friendlies in the area thought this Tiger was "invincible". So, I let no one dare say to unperk this machine. It can survive a beating.
Jug Movie 1 - Hunt or Prey
Jug Movie 2 - The Jug's Tail

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2010, 01:51:01 PM »
M4 armor is crap

Nonsense. Its armor was comparable to the later Panzer IVs with a superior slope, and thicker than the T-34/76s but with less slope.

that's one of the reason its call the ronson.

Incorrect. The reason it got nicknames like "Ronson" and "Tommy Cooker" was because of a deficiency in its ammo stowage, not its armor, making it more likely to go up in a blaze when penetrated than other contemporary medium tanks. This deficiency was remedied in the "w" models, which include both the new Shermans, by "wet stowage" of ammo which made the risk of fire more comparable to other tanks.

Except the french

Incorrect. Almost all of the French tanks deployed in 1940 had heavier armor than their German counterparts. The French stopped building tanks (as opposed to various specialty vehicles built for the Germans) after 1940, so their armor didn't get scaled up like the Germans' did, but there were still a few 1940-vintage German Mk. IVs soldiering on in Normandy in 1944, and they still had thinner armor than the Char B and  much thinner than any M4.

the Sherman had the thinnest armor in the war

Adressed above. There were scads and scads of tanks in the war with thinner armor, many of them still operating in 1944 - for starters, every Japanese tank employed anywhere outside China or Japan and every Italian tank employed anywhere (apart from about 100 non-turreted TDs). Tigers get all the attention but they were much rarer in RL than in the game; Germany produced in the ballpark of 20,000 medium tanks plus many thousands of light tanks, TDs, SPs, and other ACVs, and the only tanks (as oppose to TDs) out of all those that had armor substantially superior to the Sherman were about 6,000 Panthers.

(Also, anecdotal accounts from Allied soldiers make the Tiger seem more common than it was since inexperienced troops generally looked at anything heavier than a 38(t) and saw a Tiger.)

only reason it was successful was the numbers it was produced.

As successful as it was, sure, but then it was arguably more successful than any other tank in the war aside from the T-34 which was produced - and lost - in even greater numbers. Anyway they did well enough when not overmatched against Panthers or Tigers, at 2nd El Alamein, for example. And the early problems were more due to green US troops facing Rommel's seasoned veterans, at Kasserine for example - the US could have had Pershings or even Panthers and the outcome would have been the same when they rolled obliviously right up to well-concealed 88s.

Also, as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all its own.  ;) However powerful the Tiger was, it was a bad design because it was moredifficult to produce than it was worth on the battlefield: maybe the Allies needed 5 Shermans or T-34s to kill a Tiger or Panther, but given that they produced twenty times as many that was only a problem if you were a Sherman or T-34 crewman. And add to that something that the game regrettably (and IMO mistakenly) doesn't address, mechanical reliability, and the Allied tanks come out that much better in the balance.

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23872
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2010, 02:41:25 PM »
(...)

It's futile. No amount of facts and reasonable analysis will ever get players step away from the mixture of prejudice and myth, fueled by crappy TV shows and anecdotal "knowledge". (Put in any absurd reference to the French and it HAS to be true!)
Particularly after they have been killed in their "invincible Tiger" by a Firefly ("It's a Sherman! You needed 5 Shermans for each blah blah... no way a Sherman can ever blah blah") at close range.
It's the same stuff as Allied fighters allegedly killing heavy German armor by the hundreds with rockets & gunfire... Who cares for facts if he KNOWS the truth....
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2010, 02:51:41 PM »
It's futile. No amount of facts and reasonable analysis will ever get players step away from the mixture of prejudice and myth, fueled by crappy TV shows and anecdotal "knowledge".

Even if I add a pie chart?

Offline RDSaustinTX

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 171
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2010, 02:56:12 PM »
OK, here's an expert opinion I trust  (start at 2:00) if you are in hurry:'
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHEmTepBWLw
 
Mullah

Offline Nemisis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4086
      • Fightin 49'ers
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2010, 06:37:35 PM »
Everyone says M4 armor is crap !!  I agree in real history it was but dadgumit in here if it doesn't take me 10 direct hits to destroy one. I shot a darn M$ 11 times full flush in the side and nothingg. He turns his damn turret as I'm steady plugging him full side shots and shoots me once and I'm dead !!!  TIGER what .... TIGER  who ?  To add insult to injury I upped just to see ....  I got behind a M4 shoot him in his arse directly in fuel tank 3 times and nothing !!!  AGAIN he turns turret while I'm sitting dazed in awe and cunfused and puts 1... I repeat only 1 round into ME and I'm dead !!

I've never had an M4 take more than 3 rounds to kill (and thats with the M4(75) mind you) unless its driven by someone I know to be sketchy.

The M4's frontal armor is equivelant to that of the T-34/76's (and superior to that of the panzer's, btw) and we never hear complaints about them absorbing vast numbers of shells. Personally I think its a problem with people hitting them at an angle which causes the thicnkess of the armor to be increased (I've noticed that M4 drivers will place their forward corners to you, so as to create more ricochets and increase the thickness of their armor), and people hitting their tracks, thinking they hit the lower hull. Put up a film viewer file, and lets have HTC tell us if something's fubar, or if some people are being paranoied.


A few days ago, I killed 10 tanks at V85 in the Compello map, I made 4 frontal kills, and 6 side shots. I was in an M4A3(75), and towered out because dinner was ready, not because I got killed, or turreted. I didn't take a single shell the whole time. Either I'm unknowingly cheating, or most aren't as good as they think they are.

All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

Col. 49Nem, Armor commander of the 49th

Offline Crash Orange

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 911
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2010, 08:46:37 PM »
OK, here's an expert opinion I trust  (start at 2:00) if you are in hurry:'
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHEmTepBWLw

Well, that PLAINLY identifies the source of the problem some players seem to be experiencing - negative waves:eek:   :lol   :bolt:


Offline curry1

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2321
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2010, 08:49:14 PM »
Curry1-Since Tour 101

Offline Nemisis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4086
      • Fightin 49'ers
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2010, 10:27:11 PM »
Guys, just did the math on this, the M4's 50ish mm armor plate with the slope would be equivelant to around 100mm's of armor (give or take). So unless you are complaining that tigers are taking too much damage, the M4 should be fine. They are pretty easy to kill actually.
All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

Col. 49Nem, Armor commander of the 49th

Offline froger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #40 on: June 13, 2010, 02:42:01 AM »
OK, here's an expert opinion I trust  (start at 2:00) if you are in hurry:'
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHEmTepBWLw
 
Mullah

yup... clint could say dog poo smells good and i would have to believe um.  :aok

even D. Sutherland  :rock



froger
« Last Edit: June 13, 2010, 02:43:44 AM by froger »
frogs are people too

Offline froger

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #41 on: June 13, 2010, 02:47:59 AM »
reload is nice on the 76, I have popped a few tigers before they had a chance to get there next shot off.


don't know much about the real life M4, just like how fast the ingame M476 reloads  :D





froger
frogs are people too

Offline E25280

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3475
      • http://125thspartanforums.com
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #42 on: June 13, 2010, 03:04:54 PM »
Guys, just did the math on this, the M4's 50ish mm armor plate with the slope would be equivelant to around 100mm's of armor (give or take). So unless you are complaining that tigers are taking too much damage, the M4 should be fine. They are pretty easy to kill actually.
Really?  You just did the math?  Or did you just take that from Squire's post here?

 :rofl

Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
SWtarget in current incarnation
Captain and Communications Officer~125th Spartans

"Proudly drawing fire so that my brothers may pass unharmed."

Offline Nemisis

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4086
      • Fightin 49'ers
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2010, 03:08:39 PM »
I saw that, looked it up on the interweb, and then I confirmed it with my own math skills.

Thats an unusuall amount of research for me.
All man needs to be happy is a home, his wife, and a place in the world

Col. 49Nem, Armor commander of the 49th

Offline SEseph

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Why perk the tiger anymore? (Film inside)
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2010, 11:24:19 PM »
It's futile. No amount of facts and reasonable analysis will ever get players [to] step away from the mixture of prejudice and myth, fueled by crappy TV shows and anecdotal "knowledge".

+1

Quote from: Julius Caesar
People readily believe what they want to believe

Quote from: Mark Twain
Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.
BOWL Axis CO 2014 BoB13 JG52 XO DSG2 Axis S. Cmdr 2012 WSDG Allied CO 2012 Multiple GL/XO Side/Section CO/XO since early '00s
If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then quit. There's no point in being a damn fool about it. W.C.Fields