tiger armour question

[Nemisis]

The Tiger I didn't have 220mm thick armor. Perhaps you are thinking of the Elephant, or some other vehicle?

[Lusche]

The Tiger I didn't have 220mm thick armor. Perhaps you are thinking of the Elephant, or some other vehicle?

Look at the pics he posted. He is talking about the small area, where mantlet & hull armor do overlap.

[Nemisis]

Ah yes, yes. I see know. However, the area is so small, that its pretty much irrelivent.

[E25280]

That is the first time I have ever seen someone try to describe the front turret armour of a tiger by posting pictures of a dissembled Sherman and churchill.

Like I said, it was the pictures I could find of a turret and the gun mantlet disassembled.  If you have an actual photo of the Tiger's turret before the mantlet is attached, I'd be interested in seeing it.

You're diagram is helpful to a point.  It shows where the trunions are, which is where the mantlet physically attaches to the turret.  What is not clear from the diagram is whether the the mantlet is covering a hole in the turret front (similar to the pic I posted) or whether there is actually some kind of armor behind there with only a slot through which the gun, mg, and sighting equipment protrude.  In other words, that impressive 135mm thick armor directly around the gun may not have anything directly behind it.  And if not, than 135mm is all you get -- penetrate that, and the energy remaining in your shot is damaging gun / recoil mechanism / trunion / crew / something. 

This picture:

appears to me to show a big square hole in the front of the turret covered by the mantlet.

This diagram of the mantlet assembly sure doesn't look like it leaves any room for additional armor from the turret other than the overlapping edges.

[save]

Armor penetration is not a kill.

Behind-armor effects need to be calculated to make a non-simplistic tank simulation.
I do not know how much HTC have done to recreate BAE effects.

[Pongo]

The diagram I provided shows the outlines of the trunnions, if you take the inside edges of those trunnion boxes and make another box, that is the area that is open on the font of the turret armour. It is maybe half the front area of the turret. Ouside that box is double (200mm) armour.
do we accept that?

The area where the gun is has 135mm + the gun itself. maybe another 1/4 of the front area.
Yes, if you hit the gun itself that is a bad thing. No AH weapon will penetrate the 135+ the gun but it will hurt.
You can debate for yourself if that is a penetration or not.
do we accept that?

The two areas that are shown in profile are shown because they are the only areas that are not straight double(200mm +) and not the gun itself. They are the last 1/4 of the front area, and they are typically 150mm thick. They are 1/4 of the front area.

Do we accept that?
Now a Tiger had ammo that could get through that 150mm. And a Tiger is itself an AH vehicle so, I would have to conceed that.

Where exactly on the font of this turret is the 110mm armour?


No where.

[E25280]

The diagram I provided shows the outlines of the trunnions, if you take the inside edges of those trunnion boxes and make another box, that is the area that is open on the font of the turret armour. It is maybe half the front area of the turret. Ouside that box is double (200mm) armour.
do we accept that?

The area where the gun is has 135mm + the gun itself. maybe another 1/4 of the front area.
Yes, if you hit the gun itself that is a bad thing. No AH weapon will penetrate the 135+ the gun but it will hurt.
You can debate for yourself if that is a penetration or not.
do we accept that?

The two areas that are shown in profile are shown because they are the only areas that are not straight double(200mm +) and not the gun itself. They are the last 1/4 of the front area, and they are typically 150mm thick. They are 1/4 of the front area.

Do we accept that?
Now a Tiger had ammo that could get through that 150mm. And a Tiger is itself an AH vehicle so, I would have to conceed that.

Where exactly on the font of this turret is the 110mm armour?


No where.

I could argue semantics and say you claimed "most" of the turret front was 200mm thick, but I would only be doing it to get a rise out of you.   

Conceded. Outside the inside mark of the trunions, the mantlet of 90mm to the left and right have the turret armor behind, so 190mm protection there.  Similar double protection top and bottom.  Yes, I was silly took tape measurer against my computer screen to see if it added up to half the front area -- it is only slightly less than half, not enough to argue about.

It still leaves half of the front of the turret being either gun or with no armor behind the mantlet, but rather a piece of equipment that would be damaged if the mantlet itself were penetrated, which was the point I was trying to get at.  I expected it to be more than half, but the diagram you provided indicates otherwise.

Thanks for the diagram and discussion. I love learning something new.   

[Pongo]

Your welcome, I just learned it too.
Kind of shows how this beast got some of its reputation, which is hard to reconcile with its behavior in many games, not just AH.

[Nemisis]

Agreed. The tiger is given far too little respect in many games. Likely because you can just bum rush it unlimited numbers of inferior tanks. Eventually, it'll run low on ammo, or it will be overwhelmed.

IRL: 6 M4's vs 1 Tiger

M4's find tiger by having #1 explode. They scatter, with #2 exploding before making it to cover. Remaining 4 flank the tiger, loosing #'s 3 and 4. #5 dies, just as #6 puts a round into the tigers engine, forcing the crew to abandon it.

Aces High: 6 M4's vs 1 Tiger

Tiger kills *game ID*. *Game ID* calls for help saying "hey, we got a tiger here on our left. Beter take it out, before he camps our spawn". *Game ID*'s 5 buddys swing left, and fail to take out the tiger due to the fact that they don't use any cover, and hope to get a lucky shot before all are killed. Pissed off, dispite the fact that their plan wasn't sensible, they all up heavy fighters, and bomb the tiger.

[Lusche]

Agreed. The tiger is given far too little respect in many games.

On the other hand, our Tiger never ever suffers from mechanical breakdowns, high fuel consumption, and often reduced mobility like the real one did

[Nemisis]

And the Russians and Germans (later in the war anyway) rather low quality steel don't come into play either.

And Lusche, wouldn't that make it MORE fomidable, not less?

[Lusche]

And the Russians and Germans (later in the war anyway) rather low quality steel don't come into play either.

And Lusche, wouldn't that make it MORE fomidable, not less?

That's difficult to answer, because the battlefield and tactics are so much different in games like AH than real life. The ability to get bomb laden air support in a matter of minutes. The number of planes compared to GV's. Not having to worry about breakdown on the march or bogging down the tank in unsuitable terrain. And don't forget that the Tiger crews were usually much better trained than their Russian counterparts, which doesn't apply to AH.

[Pongo]

Nemisis,
I think it is just confusing. The front of the turret has 110mm of armour..check, we will make it that  way.
that little number at the bottom of the diagram that points at the mantlet. what could that mean?
No one here understood, I didn't understand. I just had always thought that people were a bit hysterical about the thing in 1944..
Well, they weren't, it was a beast hull down.
That clearly is the front turret armour, the slopped sides of the turret that can be hit from the front would be even worse.

What will pyro do about it, who knows. Its a pretty major change to the tank game dynamic, that would move the tiger from a good 1944 tank that fit in the game mix to a 262 kind of tank. It would lead to escalated requests for other vehicles etc. The terrain to flank the tiger is really not there on the AH battlefield. The smaller tanks need lots of micro contours to move cross open ground, they need way more small ridges etc.

AH 2 might well be a worse tank "game" with the tiger having the correct marginal front turret armour of 180 mm, if there is only one front turret hit box. Its resistance to all the aircraft that can precision drop 1000lb bombs in the game would not be increased though.

[Nemisis]

Lusche, I'm simply saying that armor made of a higher quality steel will better resist shells.


And Pongo, I would have absolutely no fear of taking on a tiger with the correct armor modled. It simply a matter of waiting, watching, and makeing your move at the correct time. Many are far too impatient in the game to deal with a correctly modled tiger, I will admit. And as soon as we got anything (even the Nashorn) with the Pak 43 'L71, the Tiger's armor would be moot.

[Pongo]

That is the first time I have ever seen someone try to describe the front turret armour of a tiger by posting pictures of a dissembled Sherman and churchill.
The Tiger is made nothing like that. It has a nearly solid plate 110 mm thick across the front that has the trunnion of the main armament on it. The only spot that is not armour is gun.
The Mantle is actually attached to the main armament and covers the entire front of the turret. The beefing up of the base of the main armament is armour, not anything to do with ballistics, no Pak or Flak has it.
Unless the round hits the gun itself, or slips under an elevated mantle if the gun is very elevated, it is hitting 220 mm plus of armour.
So the only accurate way to describe the front turret armour of a Tiger 1 is > 220mm. No weapon in AH except the 8" gun can penetrate that.
You can clearly see the structure of the front plate by its welds in a non zimmerit picture, you can clearly see the composition and coverage of the mantle in any picture.

Has anyone here ever seen a picture of a Tiger that was killed through the front of the turret? It is one of the most photographed vehicles of WW2.

I am bumping this because I did find such a picture, where if it wasnt killed it was at least incapacitated through the mantle.

One round hit the actual hole for the gunners sight. It went down hill from there.