Towed Guns?

[dud]

Anyone thought about having towed guns lately? I found an old post about them but nothing recent. Towed AA and towed AT guns are something that could be interesting. Allied guns could use the M3 to tow, and another position to man the gun. To kill one, both the M3 and gun itself would have to be destroyed. Axis could use the half-track as a tow, with an added position to man the gun. Time delay after stopping to setup, then fire for effect. 


Or is this just a utter bad idea?

[Nemisis]

Heres some problems I see with this.....

#1: you would get two kills, if it takes two people to work a towed gun (M3/ SdKfz 251 driver, and the actual driver), instead of having to kill both to get a single kill.

#2: Also, you'd have to make it so the gunner only has, say, 30 shells with him unless HIS halftrack stays within 20yds of him, then its 50-60 shells.

#3: this would be good for defense, but not really good for offense. And for defense, you have the problem of the gun being able to cover only what he can see from where he was placed by the M3/251 (well, from wherever he rolled himself to within a 50ft radius), where as a tank can cover roughly 4 times that much gound, and do it more effectively (he's got armor. even a D3A will pose serious worries for you)

#4: even the low bushes we have will get in your way, unless you put yourself on a hill, which negates the only purpose of having a towed gun in AH (smaller = harder to see).

#5: Self proppeled AT guns, such as the M3A1 GMC (M3 halftrack with the gun from the M4A3(75) mounted on it, and the SdKfz 251/22 (SdKfz 251 with a Pak-40, the same gun as the Panzer's, mounted on it) would be much more effective, since you don't have to rely on someone else to move you, you carry your own ammo, and you will be able to see over the small bushes while retaining a smaller outline than a tank.

[BrownBaron]

I imagine an unarmored gun would be rather easy to destroy as well....It's downright insulting when an experienced GV'er kills you with his MG. 

[321BAR]

the thing is though nemesis. Towed guns could be moved slowly by 2-4 men. you can slowly roll the AT gun to a good position in a grove or by a barn (or in a barn). it can also be picked up and have the direction of the facing changed to accomodate the 360 degrees needed. so other than deployment with half tracks, i see no problem with AT guns and AA guns

[dud]

Some valid points I hadn't thought of...brush height,lack of armor, terrain challenges. It would possibly be a better idea if there were actual city sieges, where there are bombed out buildings to hide them in or streets to wind around in to set ambushes for tanks, etc. El Oh El....just an idea. Thanks for the input.

[Nemisis]

Yeah BAR, and the slowest tanks we have can still go at least 5 times faster than a gun could be pushed. Once they clear the 100yds or so to the next grove of trees, they're in the clear.

And yes, which is why I said "well, from wherever he rolled himself to within a 50ft radius", that being about the maximum distance we should let them move and still keep more than the one shell loaded in the gun without getting supps.

[SmokinLoon]

Instead of a towed gun, simply have that howitzer or infantry support gun mounted to an existing chassis.  The M3, SdKfz, and M4A3 Sherman all have versions in which an infantry support cannon was mounted on that chassis.

Easy peasy.   

[Nemisis]

Loon, I think he's asking for AT guns. The M4A3(75) is about the best "infintry support" gun in the game.

[321BAR]

nemesis, some terrains are PERFECT for AT gun ambushes... pretend you use an AT instead of a sherman or panzer. And have 3 coordinated AT guns. it can create a defensive pocket and killzone. low profiling in the bushes will allow for concealment from return fire. YES it would be hard to move em. But ive posted for a half hour at some times with a tank and just picked off enemy tanks rolling towards our line. i usually end up with 10-15 kills before i displace because they never find me.

[SmokinLoon]

Loon, I think he's asking for AT guns. The M4A3(75) is about the best "infintry support" gun in the game.

Ah yes, then the SdKfz 251/22 would be perfect.  The only thing though would be the cannon, the Pak40 was superior to the KwK40 just like the US 76mm M1A1 cannon vs US 75mm M3 cannon.  Im under the impression there was not a version of the SdKfz that carried the KwK40 like we have mounted on the Pzr IV.  The SdKfz 251/22 carried the Pak40.  If HTC would allow a substitution and mount the KwK40 instead, we'd have another variant with minimal "coading".  Or better yet, model the Pak40 and get the real SdKfz 251/22 in play!    

Actually, I'd vouch for the LVT-4's M2 75mm cannon right along with the M3 cannon of the M4A3 75mm Sherman as being the best infantry support gun in the game.  It is the same thing as the M4A3's M3 75mm cannon, only short barreled, AND the LVT-4 carries more HE rounds.   

 

[Nemisis]

It carries 3 more rounds (1.5 more town buildings destroyed), can be easily killed by an M8, and the M4 has a higher ROF (I think it does anyway).


And BAR, you're calculating without aircraft. If I see anything red on the ground, I call it out to the guys on the ground. If I can, I will tell what it is, and if its a firefly as opposed to an M4A3 for example. Also, all the tankers have to do is lob an HE round anywhere near the gun, and the crew is killed (IDK if that would be a kill, or if its just "disabled", like when our turrets get damaged.

[321BAR]

It carries 3 more rounds (1.5 more town buildings destroyed), can be easily killed by an M8, and the M4 has a higher ROF (I think it does anyway).


And BAR, you're calculating without aircraft. If I see anything red on the ground, I call it out to the guys on the ground. If I can, I will tell what it is, and if its a firefly as opposed to an M4A3 for example. Also, all the tankers have to do is lob an HE round anywhere near the gun, and the crew is killed (IDK if that would be a kill, or if its just "disabled", like when our turrets get damaged.

i see no problem with aircraft anyways. the only reason many GVers have A/C problems is due to the lack of air support of their allies. A/C bombing GVs need to be contested for GV ops to work. and if you are defending a base, these aircraft should not be a problem anyways. So yet again, why would AT guns have a problem setting ambushes up?

[Nemisis]

Well for starters, our slowest tanks have 20mph on them (and thats being conservative). That means that even a small course change (say there is a tank on the left, I would head left, and follow the action) can cause your ambush to fail, given the abundance of cover, and that your AT gun(s) will likely be in the best cover they can find (cover works both ways you know).

Second, AC will report anything you do if they are near the ground. They also have a tendancy to strafe targets regardless of if its effective (strafing a Tiger with a spitfire's .30's will do nothing), however, it will easily kill your gun crew.

Third, YOU may have the patients to work an ambush, but I'm willing to bet that your buddies will bail on you half way through, meaning a lot of the routes you had covered are now open.


And Loon, I didn't see your statment about the Pak 40 being superior to the KwK 40, which is correct. If nothing else, the stronger cannon will get it use (likely the hardest hitting perk free vehicle).

[321BAR]

Well for starters, our slowest tanks have 20mph on them (and thats being conservative). That means that even a small course change (say there is a tank on the left, I would head left, and follow the action) can cause your ambush to fail, given the abundance of cover, and that your AT gun(s) will likely be in the best cover they can find (cover works both ways you know).

Second, AC will report anything you do if they are near the ground. They also have a tendancy to strafe targets regardless of if its effective (strafing a Tiger with a spitfire's .30's will do nothing), however, it will easily kill your gun crew.

Third, YOU may have the patients to work an ambush, but I'm willing to bet that your buddies will bail on you half way through, meaning a lot of the routes you had covered are now open.


And Loon, I didn't see your statment about the Pak 40 being superior to the KwK 40, which is correct. If nothing else, the stronger cannon will get it use (likely the hardest hitting perk free vehicle).

1: you still cannot understand my point. you're not sitting behind the cover unless you are hiding. 2nd, you do not NEED to move if you are AMBUSHING them.
2: if you're underneath trees or in barns you're not going to be seen nem...
3: you cannot speak for other players nem. and i know for a fact that if you bring the right people they will stay with you. and along with that, a good leader can get people to follow if you know what you're doing or even if they THINK you know what you're doing... nemesis, basically all your points right now are moot no offense meant...

[Nemisis]

1st: You missed my point about them moving away from the route you predicted. If that happens, you will need to move to get a shot, or wait and see if anyone comes into your kill zone. And if you pop out of cover to shoot, then you are just as vulnerable, if not more so. Are you familiar with the saying "if the enemy is in range, so are you"?

2nd: Don't be so sure. I've gotten many kills (and often avoided being killed) because an air spotter said "heads up guys, theres a tank hiding in that barn ahead of you". How much do you want to bet that the GV thought the barn or trees would keep his icon hidden. And your statment contradicts the first; why would the GV's have a spotter come look things over, give someone enough time to set up an ambush, and THEN move forward?

3rd: No doubt, but the majority of players lack the patients to sit in a barn for 45 mins without any action. I've seen some people just charge ahead to be killed when theres someone in a P-38 checking things out ahead of us.

And another thing: You'll have to rely on M3's and SdKfz 251's to move you around, so an M3 sitting in the bushes will be a dead give away that an AT gun is somewhere nearby. I'm not saying that I don't want AT guns, but I'm saying that vehicles such as the SdKfz 251/22 would be much better suited to the world of AH. You must admit that on many maps, the groves of trees placed every 300yds or so will severly limit the ground you can cover.