Author Topic: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay  (Read 2845 times)

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2010, 06:46:05 AM »
bring back zones :aok
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2010, 09:57:05 AM »
In game, most of the activities, reconnaissance, supply, bombing, interdiction, are in tactical situations.  Where are the inbound gvs?  Can you bring some supplies?  Can you bomb the vh? 

It is a good tactical system because all of the activities are meaningful.  The rewards are commensurate with the risks.

On the strategic side, the rewards seem to not justify the risks.  Strategic recon is limited to task group location, and, maybe, town status.

Maybe a simple change like disabling an enemy’s field status could add some strategic importance to base recon.

For the rest, I like the idea of factories and supply networks.  It could get complicated in coding and in game play.  It would also have to be clever enough not to completely cripple a country.  In a game, who wants to fly for Japan in July, 1945? 

Plus, Hitech is on the record on considering the incorporation submarines.  In game terms, they would need targets other than task groups.  Convoys in some sort of supply network would fit nicely with submarines.

Bombing a field or town could cause an AI convoy or train to spawn, which could then be interdicted.  The success or failure of the supply run could affect hangar/town down time.

The key is to keep the fun without adding gamey-ness or too much “not fun.”



PS.  Good topic, Grizz.   :salute I don’t often agree with you.
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Offline HawkerMKII

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2010, 10:28:51 AM »
What about longer rebuild times for captured bases? Sure let the acks come back up so the country the field was taken from can't just take it back. But when your the low # side and both other countrys are smacking you. They get a steam roller effect going that makes it very hard to stop.

If the bases that were captured did not have fuel, ord, rearm for half an hour. That would give the defending country a better chance to muster a defense. And keep the attacking country from being able to endlessly leapfrog forward.





Or better yet , if bases is captured it does not auto re-supply, players must run m-3's or goon's for re-supply, make players work a bit??? Just a thought
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2010, 10:48:37 AM »
Here's a list of strat changes from a CM Terrain builders perspective:

1. Reinstate the old zone system.
2. Each zone base has it's own City suppling the zone.
3. When arena setting, StratDisabled is off, the City will disappear if the zone base is captured, reducing Milkrunning in the MA and halting resupply of the zones bases. If  StratDisabled is on, the City ownership transfers with base ownership and remains a target.
4. The HQ zone has the home City (factories in zone number 0, 1, or 2) and it does not disappear with zone base capture.

Note: City refers to the new city complex.

None of this is new, only an extension of the familar systems.
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Offline Plazus

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2010, 10:59:14 AM »
I think if the strats have more value to them, it might help with the strategic element. Easyscor has some good points.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2010, 11:03:34 AM »
Perhaps the strategy could be altered to require the factories to be captured as well. 
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2010, 12:41:47 PM »
Here's a list of strat changes from a CM Terrain builders perspective:

1. Reinstate the old zone system.
2. Each zone base has it's own City suppling the zone.
3. When arena setting, StratDisabled is off, the City will disappear if the zone base is captured, reducing Milkrunning in the MA and halting resupply of the zones bases. If  StratDisabled is on, the City ownership transfers with base ownership and remains a target.
4. The HQ zone has the home City (factories in zone number 0, 1, or 2) and it does not disappear with zone base capture.


Why?  That system seems outdated and strategically basic to me.  Not much substance to it.  I'm talking about revamping the entire thing and having Uber Bases that are all worth something significant in the war when captured, and having them graphically represented differently so players understand the significance of them.  From what I've heard, the old zone system was the same game, except only the well informed players knew that these certain zone bases held some global signifance.  That's not really adding anything to the immersion side of things.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2010, 01:05:45 PM »
Changes in strategic game play:
Limited aircraft types available at fields   Large airfields have all aircraft types.  Medium, no 4 engine bombers .  Small, no 4 engine bombers, no jet aircraft. 
Certain aircraft types associated with each hanger.  When that hanger is down, the aircraft types are not available at that airfield.

Town ack can be resupplied by field supplies out of any airfield plus 10 troops.   
Small airfields take 20 troops to capture
Medium airfields take 30 troops to capture
Large airfields take 40 troops to capture

Newly captured fields must be resupplied with field supplies and troops to get the field ack up and working until that happens, the capturing troops can only defend with 50 caliber machine guns around the map room.  Three at the small field, five at the medium field and 8 at the large field
Bring back the puffy ack at bases, factory, depots

Add supply depots ,   The train or truck routes out of factory lead to Supply depots, the depots roads lead to bases.  Depots can be damaged, destroyed, captured. 50 troops to capture.  Depots have a supporting Vehicle base and associated small airfield.

Factory can be damaged , destroyed, captured.  Engineers/troops can repair, rebuild, capture factory/ 100 troops to capture.  Would be defended by one large airfield, Vehicle base and surrounded by rings of anti aircraft, lots of puffy ack.

A road network that actually means something.    Engineers to build/destroy bridges/roadways, ability to capture bridges with assault troops.  Troops at a bridge would defend with anti aircraft and machine gun pill boxes.   
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Offline Nemisis

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2010, 02:09:34 PM »
I would like to see some "defense lines" set up. Just possitions such as dirt walls, maybe a cement block house every few miles that you can pull a tank inside of (VERY limited field of fire, but you are also much harder to kill). Have defenses be focused on one side, but no the other. This would increase the importance of indirectly threatening a base by taking those that have spawns into a base's rear.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2010, 02:41:25 PM »
Why?  That system seems outdated and strategically basic to me.  Not much substance to it.  I'm talking about revamping the entire thing and having Uber Bases that are all worth something significant in the war when captured, and having them graphically represented differently so players understand the significance of them.  From what I've heard, the old zone system was the same game, except only the well informed players knew that these certain zone bases held some global signifance.  That's not really adding anything to the immersion side of things.

Be careful with pushing significance & impact too far ;)

With the old zone system the old bases had a very significant impact, and I doubt I want to see anything with an even larger impact on the arena as a whole - even though I am a "strategic" player by heart.
And I disagree that only few players knew about the significance - everybody around for some time knew they were more important, even though many did not know the exact mechanism. Of course, many didn't care - but those would probably not care for anything more laborate either, unless it's impacting their ability to play & have fun in a negative way. And it would surely no problem to make zone bases stand more out graphically on a map if such a system ever comes back into life ;)

And just to say it again - I don't want to just go back to the old strat & zone system - I want to make the new strat complex more viable as a target (score! supplies!) and add a level of zone system on top of that.

Hmmmm..I'm just geting an idea to bring back the "capture order" and zone system at the same time... gimme 30mins to work it out  :old:
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2010, 03:51:04 PM »
Why? <snip>

It’s all about gameplay, with some immersion thrown in, but since the proposal isn’t self evident, I’ll explain.
Sorry about the wall of text, but you asked.

Those who know the old strat system, you can skip this part.
In the old system, factories were widely separated, but two guys in Lanc formations could make two passes on a factory and drop it from 100% down to 5%. Therefore posting a large mission to kill a single factory made no sense. The old zone system concentrated the factories somewhat better, but it adds extra work for the terrain builder in dispersing the factories, and missions still weren’t needed to kill a single factory. Also, since the City was key to the factory rebuilding, it would usually be back up in under two hours, and less if resupplied. Probably the most repugnant part of the old system was the milkrunning of enemy strat that ended up behind the lines. Even further back in game history, bombing the HQ was a percentage return. Knock certain parts down, and radar went down in 4 steps, friendly bar, friendly dot, enemy bar, and enemy dot. It was instant feed back. The HQ was THE strat target of choice, and some of us got so good at it that radar virtually disappeared for hours at a time during prime-time USA.

I suggested reinstating the old multiple zones because no one wants to play when down on territory, attacked from all sides, and then crippled because of the loss of a factory. The thing the old zone system had going for it, was that you could usually depend on at least a zone or two being operational, particularly the HQ zone. There have been suggestions that the strat must cripple the defenders, and enhance the attackers in order to make it valuable enough as a target. IMO, that’s not the way to go. Breaking a countries territory up into zones allows for real consequences to destroying the city complex while still being survivable for the defenders, as compared to a single zone with all it’s factories destroyed.
 
Under the proposed system, of reinstating the zones, all the factories for the zone would be concentrated in the City, making it a prime target for large missions. If taken down, the standard resupply system for the bases within the zone would kick in. Each base within the zone would depend on the game’s maximum resupply time, or player resupply to rebuild each base’s bunkers, ie ammo bunkers etc. Of course, the player resupply would still be an option at the factories as well.

For both the defender and the attackers, the destruction of these factories become much more apparent, making them the center piece for a more significant part of the action. When the zone base is captured, all the bases within the zone must be manually supplied by both sides.

Having the City complex disappear after the zone base is captured, gives a clear indication that the zone’s bases must be player supplied. It defeats milkrunning, and from an immersion standpoint, the attackers have exceeded their supply lines. It also mitigates the loss of territory for the defenders, but gives them the opportunity to recapture the zone base and have their City rebuild. I suppose all the factories would reappear at 100%, as some time must pass between the time the zone base is lost and recaptured, but perhaps the rebuild clock would still be running on some factory buildings. The point is, the defenders could recapture it and would have a self-suppling zone to advance their front.

Presumably, having more Cities, some would be closer to the front, and prime targets for large missions.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2010, 03:56:37 PM by Easyscor »
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Offline bustr

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2010, 06:29:31 PM »
Complex systems generally fail under their own weight but are romantically addictive intellectually to the dreamer making up the fantasy.

Grizz is the first person in years who has started with K.I.S.S. as his principle for revamping the strategic portion of the game. As always the usual suspects rapidly turn the discussion into their personal fantasy version of the game and do not look at the reality of the average paying customer. The average paying customer who out numbers the geniuses in this thread will not stay long if you complicate playing the game. That's why in the Zone days only a small number of players new what a Zone base capture alert really meant to their game play happiness.

Most of you throw out exotic elegantly structured game flow constructs but, none of you ever create a nuts and bolts template of "average paying player motivation and reward" to hold your fantasy constructs up against. The average paying player outnumbers you and so pays the bills to keep the power on for the servers. Loose them due to boredom or over complicating the game and HiTech will have to simplify it in spite of your genius. Here is a starting point that most of you ignore because you don't rely on this game to pay your salary. 

1. You have 2 hours max on average during peak time to hold the attention of 250-350 players who don't want to fly very far or high to play.
2. What motivates them to stay inside of on average a 4 square sector area and play for 2 hours?
3. Why is their focus so small with so many opportunities on such large maps?
4. Knowing the greif it will cause why do so few players take down the radar at the HQ?
5. Why do so many players not show up to defend or resupply the HQ?
6. Why are so many players not interested in long complex missions that emulate WW2?
7. Why was NOE large missions to isolated feilds so disruptive that HiTech changed how radar shows cons?
8. How can you make any strat contribute to game play by giving the short term rewards that even spending 4 hours trying to take a single base does for players?
9. The happiest players are the ones getting the most powerful short term reward feed back for their efforts.
10. The more complex the system the more prone to failure.....

Make taking a strat as important and rewarding as taking any feild in the game!
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Offline grizz441

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2010, 06:38:01 PM »
8. How can you make any strat contribute to game play by giving the short term rewards that even spending 4 hours trying to take a single base does for players?
9. The happiest players are the ones getting the most powerful short term reward feed back for their efforts.
10. The more complex the system the more prone to failure.....


I agree, but what harm would there be in throwing in a few Uber-Bases on the map?  It would not be a requirement to invest time into fighting over them, but it would me an option and most likely a hot spot that could breed some epic battles for hours.  If you wanted no part of it, you could go off do your own thing and capture an easy base, which would still be worth something just not as valuable.  It's a simple premise, but I think it would be a lot more fun for everybody.

And I should note, that everyone is chalking up my OP to the old zone system.  This isn't the same at all.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2010, 06:48:18 PM »
I think Mensa180 had a promising idea from another thread tie the strat in to winning the war. Once you have your desired captured bases you must get the strats down to a certain percentage to win the whole thing. Think of all the win the war mind sets forced in to one location to get it done.

Offline Jayhawk

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Re: Revamp of Strategic Gameplay
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2010, 06:52:19 PM »
I think Mensa180 had a promising idea from another thread tie the strat in to winning the war. Once you have your desired captured bases you must get the strats down to a certain percentage to win the whole thing. Think of all the win the war mind sets forced in to one location to get it done.

The thing I don't like about this is that fact that personally I only see a war won maybe once a month, if that.  I don't have 100 hours a month to play this game so won wars are few and far between, I'm speculating that is the same for many players.  Especially on these large maps I would only expect the strat to come into play a couple times a year.
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