Time for the Spitfire Mk.XII.

[gyrene81]

+1  

Without the Spitfire you all would be speaking german today  

LMAO...yeah riiiight. You thinking Alice in Wonderland is a biography too?        We Americans would still be speaking the same language, can't say the same about Europe.

And also Spits > any US Plane   When in doubt, check my sig which is from an US Pilot 

Just goes to show how "easy mode" those dweeb planes are.

[Viperius]

Just goes to show how "easy mode" those dweeb planes are.

It goes to show that your planes are watermelon  

LMAO...yeah riiiight. You thinking Alice in Wonderland is a biography too?         We Americans would still be speaking the same language, can't say the same about Europe.

Alrite lets take this further, a fully nazi occupied Europe facing an unprepared US.

German industry producing without hinderence since Britain can't be used as an airbase to raid german citys and industrial centers.

Then of course your prime glory fighter the P-51 which was made on request by the british and powered by a british designed engine, now that Britain is in nazi hands theoretically speaking there would be no P-51.

Good luck with your Jugs against 262's rolling out in full production  

And if you didn't get it by now, it was a joke with a tiny bit of truth in it 

[gyrene81]

And if you didn't get it by now, it was a joke with a tiny bit of truth in it 

You're alternate history is a bit off. 

You forgot Russia. With the lend lease program, a total disregard for human life and the Russian winter, they held the Germans off long enough to build their army and industrial system, then proceeded to defeat Hitler's 6th Army. Without U.S. involvement, the war in Europe would most likely have continued for a few more years and Britain would have maintained sovereignty since Hitler lacked the foresight and resources for a full scale invasion.

[Viperius]

You're alternate history is a bit off.  

You forgot Russia. With the lend lease program, a total disregard for human life and the Russian winter, they held the Germans off long enough to build their army and industrial system, then proceeded to defeat Hitler's 6th Army. Without U.S. involvement, the war in Europe would most likely have continued for a few more years and Britain would have maintained sovereignty since Hitler lacked the foresight and resources for a full scale invasion.

You mean the Russia which begged the allies to open a second front for 4 years cause they couldn't keep them at bay by themselves? And you still assume that this would be the same nazi germany who is getting bombed every night and day which in this theoretical scenario wouldn't be the case.
And with all Europe occupied they would be able to put their full power against the russians and without the US/UK second front in Africa things would look mighty bleak for the soviets.

Many many factors would play in this (British inventions of radar, sonar and the enigma codebreakers etc etc etc.), I am not saying that the US would go under without a fight but it would be a very hard one facing the technological superior germans at their industrial prime.  

Enough of this headgame, back on topic.

Yes to the Spitfire Mk.XII.  

[gyrene81]

You mean the Russia which begged the allies to open a second front for 4 years cause they couldn't keep them at bay by themselves? And you still assume that this would be the same nazi germany who is getting bombed every night and day which in this theoretical scenario wouldn't be the case.

So you're saying it took the Germans 4 years to get to Stalingrad? Stalin didn't "beg" anything, he ignored warnings from everyone and left his army unprepared for Hitler's invasion because he erroneously thought Hitler would maintain the non-aggression pact. Stalin didn't actually start doing anything until Hitler's armies crossed into Russian territory, then he asked for weapons, same as Churchill. On the flip side, if Hitler had listened to his commanders and went around Stalingrad to secure the Russian oil fields before doing anything else, your supposition of a full scale Nazi industrial system may have come to fruition assuming they had also found the other needed resources which they were starting to lack when Russia was invaded. Iron was a commodity that was beginning to shrink fast before the U.S. strategic bombing initiative was put into action. Speaking of which, it's highly likely that the Brits would have eventually wised up and started long range bombing on German industry...maybe.

The scariest part of the alternate history is the great possibility that Hitler would have produced the first nuke, imagine long range V-2s, or jet powered long range bombers, dropping nukes on London, Paris, Moscow, New York, Washington D.C. by 1945.

[Guppy35]

+1  

Without the Spitfire you all would be speaking german today  

And also Spits > any US Plane   When in doubt, check my sig which is from an US Pilot 

Probably the dumbest comment I've ever seen.  I'm a Spit fanatic far beyond most anyone here.  The Spit XII has been a history project of mine starting in 1980 and I was blessed to count many former Spit XII drivers as friends and spend time with them.  I'll stack my Spit XII research up against anyone in the world.  That being said, to claim the Spit did it all on it's own, is downright silly. 

The Spit was the best Allied short range interceptor of the war.  Had it been the be all, end all plane, the Mustang, Jug, etc would not have been.  Problem was it lacked the range.  It was a problem that never got solved for the Spit, so it was limited to short range penetrations into Europe.  The 38s, Jugs and Mustangs could take it further.  The Spit was never very effective as a fighter bomber even though it got used that way.  As one former Spit XII driver turned XVI fighter bomber driver said to me.  Due to the lack of air to air targets, they needed to find something to do with the Spits.  He got shot down dive bombing sub pens with 500 pounders.  A total waste of time that he still resented.  While he was doing that, the Mustangs in particular were shooting down the LW over Germany.

Another Spit XII driver, who shot down JG54 ace Bully Lang, noted in his diary that he would much have preferred to go on Mustangs and get into the fight over Germany.  He wrote this in August 44.  He'd flown Mustang I's with 26 squadron prior to his time with 41 flying XIIs and then XIVs.

Without US support, England ends up isolated at best and potentially starved into submission.  Germany was never in any position to threaten the US.  The B of B made that clear enough.  They didn't have the long range bombers or fighters to take on the British.  Those two nice big oceans made for a nice barrier. 

You also assume that US aircraft development wouldn't have had time to kick into high gear anyway.

In the end, I'd suggest some serious history research before you start making statements like that again.

[Kazaa]

Sounds like Guppy just got trolled.

[guncrasher]

Think he meant w/o spitfires England eouldda been speaking German.  The truth is. If Germany had invaded England there wouldda been thousands and thousands of American "volunteers" joining Canada or British armies, but that's another story.  No denying spitfire/hurricanes saved England, but only after the Germans started bombing cities instead of air bases.

Semp

[Tec]

Sounds like Guppy just got trolled.

The old farts don't speak emote

[Bruv119]

No denying spitfire/hurricanes saved England, but only after the Germans started bombing cities instead of air bases.

Semp

the hurricanes did most of the shooting down of bombers,  The spitfires just encouraged the 109's to run away.  

Your last comment is a bit off though.  Whilst the Germans made a tactical change to relieve pressure from 11 Group the other groups were still very much intact and always able to pitch into the battle.  Hitler needed complete aerial superiority and thanks to the men of The Few they never achieved it.   The more sorties made the less chance those experienced bomber pilots stood of going back home. 

Thank god for the English channel 

[Tupac]

+1  

Without the Spitfire you all would be speaking german today  

And also Spits > any US Plane   When in doubt, check my sig which is from an US Pilot 

F6F had a higher k/d

[Guppy35]

Sounds like Guppy just got trolled.

Nah, trolls at least attempt to be clever.  That was just stupid.

[Tupac]

Nah, trolls at least attempt to be clever.  That was just stupid.

He was just offering his non-biased opinion guppy. (lol)

I guess its also a negligable fact that the hurricane had more kills than the spit.

[guncrasher]

Hurricanes had the easiest targets than the spits.


Semp

[Karnak]

I guess its also a negligable fact that the hurricane had more kills than the spit.

Only in the Battle of Britain.  Over the course of the war the Spit had far more kills.