Thinking about getting a Pistol, need some advice.

[Sonicblu]

Had a ruger 45

Got a glock 45 nice gun other than the feel of the trigger , feels like rubber.

[Simba]

"Be careful "packing" powder into any cartridge.  Please follow the reloading tables for the cartridge...  Any thing other than that is just asking for trouble.  Don't care what pistol you are using....just plain dangerous..."

Yup - KABOOM.

And if you're a shooter of a black-powder revolver, make sure all surplus powder is cleaned from the cylinder before you play at being Outlaw Josey Wales, or chain-fire may really spoil your day.

 

[Kurtank]

My baby <3
I'll never shoot another double stack 9mm other than this ever again.

If only it didn't cost $2000, I'd recommend it to anyone.
If you've got the cash, get it and never look back.

[Jayhawk]

Today was a good day. 

[SmokinLoon]

I get a kick out of the "that suxors, get a XYZ" crowd, and that goes for brand and calibers both.  Truly, they are the ones that hang out in the guns stores and pawn shops too long and take the "former Navy SEAL" at the gun show to heart.

Fellas... the debate between the 9mm, .357 Sig, .40SW, and ,45ACP will be eternal.  Your best bet is to RESEARCH the topic and learn the truth.  The following statements are fact and I just happen believe that truth will win the day.

First, accuracy is the most important factor.  If you cant hit what you're aiming for then the entire arguement if moot.  I've had loud mouthed deputies shoot their mouth off about my Sig 226/9mm being a wussy gun, but they have a hard time qualifying while I shoot %100 my first time out.

Second, with modern day performance ammunition (HP's, SP's, etc), the wound channels caused by any of the 4 afor mentioned calibers is far and above what is needed to incapacitate a bad guy, and they are far too similar acorss the spectrum to discount any one caliber.  Keep in mind that the military uses FMJ's (non perfomance ammunition) and thus the bullet speed, weight, and design are the sole factors in determining their individual wound channel characteristics and that is an entirely different discussion.  Military vs civilain uses are 2 very different things.
 
Thirdly,  no brand of gun regardless of caliber can make up for the amount of training and expertise a person can have.  By that I mean I will take a veteran from the NYPD SWAT, or other similar unit to be at my side armed with a 6 shot .38 Special SW Mod 10 revolver vs some wet behind the ears LEO or other such loudmouth who thinks his Glock 22 and his uber .40SW caliber is the best thing since sliced bread.

 

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

To understand the 9MM, the 40 S&W, and all of that, a good source of information is the various well researched articles and papers on the legendary "Miami Shootout", a modern gunfight researched as much or more as the "Gun Fight at the OK Corral".

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86b.html

http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/shooting.htm

That last link takes you to a page that has links to the pdf files of the FBI 60+ page report.

If you are seriously considering the purchase of a handgun for the purpose of self defense, all of the above is good reading.

Remember, however, that it is not a representation of the type of incident a civilian is likely to be involved in.

I personally do not own a 9MM, or a 40 S&W, nor will I. The only reason I own a 38 Special is that it was my Dad's duty weapon at one time, and was passed on to me. It is a keepsake, regardless of it being a premium quality firearm, it is still a 38 Special, and I recognize that. Even my wife carries a 44 Special, not a 38 Special, nor a 9MM. Her eventual goal is a Sig P220 in 45 ACP.

A weapon is not magic, nor is a cartridge. However, a barely adequate weapon or cartridge will immediately become less than adequate when a gun fight starts. It will be better than no weapon at all, by a substantial margin.

[jimson]

Weather and locale also could be considered in the choice of a firearm for self defense.

Here in the hotter than hell desert southwest, you will seldom need a round to penetrate multiple layers of heavy clothing.

I feel comfortable with my Browning Hi-Power 9mm.

[eagl]

Second, with modern day performance ammunition (HP's, SP's, etc), the wound channels caused by any of the 4 afor mentioned calibers is far and above what is needed to incapacitate a bad guy, and they are far too similar acorss the spectrum to discount any one caliber.  Keep in mind that the military uses FMJ's (non perfomance ammunition) and thus the bullet speed, weight, and design are the sole factors in determining their individual wound channel characteristics and that is an entirely different discussion.  Military vs civilain uses are 2 very different things.
 
Thirdly,  no brand of gun regardless of caliber can make up for the amount of training and expertise a person can have.  

Those are 2 good points, highlighted by a story from Iraqi Freedom...  A guy on convoy duty got ambushed and to make a long story short, he ended up being the only guy able to fight, trapped near and in his humvee surrounded by a couple dozen bad guys.  He hopped into the gun turret and put the .30 on anyone within the gun's traverse angle, but nearly a dozen bad guys were able to get close enough that he couldn't get the .30 on them.  So he had to use his 9mm...  Here is the freaky part.  Even with the bad guys not wearing any armor, he had to shoot some of them point-blank several times before they quit coming at him.  3-4 rounds hitting each target was what it took.  So the point about modern ammo is extremely valid, because the USAF is only allowed to use weak FMJ ball ammo in the commonly issued 9mm, and it has rather poor stopping power as this NCO discovered.  If he'd had an old-school .45 or even the same beretta in .40, and assuming he was equally proficient shooting it as he proved himself to be with the 9mm, I don't think it would have taken nearly as many hits per target to put them down.

The other point about training is equally valid...  This one NCO singlehandedly took out around 2 dozen Iraqis who were charging his humvee, maybe a third of them with that crappy 9mm.

I wish I could find the writeup of that battle...  Freaky good story about one guy who decided he wasn't going to die that day.  He also saved a bunch of his own folks who had been shot up.

[katanaso]

Just for informational purposes, the ammo rules are from Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp

and a broader link about the Convetions of 1899 and 1907 (Wikipedia, so trust as you will):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Conventions_(1899_and_1907)


In regards to the scenario you repeated, did they determined if the bad guys were on some type of drugs?

[Jayhawk]

The biggest factor for me is cost of ammunition.  I can put almost two times as many rounds through a 9mm than a higher caliber, and my accuracy shows that.  Once I become rich ( ) then I can afford to become just as good with a .45 as a 9mm.

[eagl]

Just for informational purposes, the ammo rules are from Declaration III of the Hague Convention of 1899.
(snip)
In regards to the scenario you repeated, did they determined if the bad guys were on some type of drugs?

Not drugged up, just highly motivated since their homeland was being invaded. 

It is just that the 9mm ball ammo we're issued is pretty weak.  If you don't hit the head, spine, heart, or maybe the pelvis/hip, the bad guy has plenty of time to keep trying to kill you before he bleeds out.  It just doesn't have immediate stopping power if the shot doesn't hit a vital spot.

I am well versed on the ammo rules, having had many hours of law of armed conflict training during my career...  Anything short of .50 cal is legal for general anti-personnel use as long as it is FMJ.  So get as close to .50 cal as practical, and make the bullet travel as fast as possible, duh    USAF 9mm ball isn't very big and it sure doesn't go very fast.  I can get FMJ ball for my beretta .40 (absolutely identical weapon to the issue 9mm except for barrel diameter and feed geometry) that has about double the energy as the military 9mm rounds, it isn't any harder to shoot, doesn't weigh any more, etc etc.   Because the weapons are essentially identical in function and dimensions, NATO could swap to the .40 overnight with no impact on training.  The impact would be purely logistical, no different than the swap from .38 to 9mm back in the early/mid '90s.  Or possibly even less of an impact since things like holsters would still be interchangable between the 9mm and .40 versions.

Still, at least special forces are allowed to choose weapons and ammo that are actually effective.  I'm glad that special weapons applications  are authorized in the ammo rules even though they generally won't apply to me.

[eagl]

The biggest factor for me is cost of ammunition.  I can put almost two times as many rounds through a 9mm than a higher caliber, and my accuracy shows that.  Once I become rich ( ) then I can afford to become just as good with a .45 as a 9mm.

I use a .22 for basic marksmanship practice...  I also shoot my .40 to "warm up" for the 9mm qualification course I have to take.  The 9mm is so mild compared to even the cheapo .40 ammo I use for practice that the military qual is usually super easy.

I have to qual again soon so it is time to get out to the shooting range again.  I haven't shot in years so it is past time to get in some time at the range.

[Jayhawk]

I use a .22 for basic marksmanship practice...  I also shoot my .40 to "warm up" for the 9mm qualification course I have to take.  The 9mm is so mild compared to even the cheapo .40 ammo I use for practice that the military qual is usually super easy.

I have to qual again soon so it is time to get out to the shooting range again.  I haven't shot in years so it is past time to get in some time at the range.

I also have a .22LR that I use for marksmanship practice, handling practice, and just plinking.  I do have a sub-compact .40 that I've been carrying more here in the summer vs. a compact 9mm glock.  It's growing on me, and is perfect for CC, but that 9mm is just so much more enjoyable to shoot.

[eagl]

I don't think I would ever shoot a "compact" .40 for fun...  My wrists couldn't take the abuse.  I would eventually like to get a compact .40 for concealed carry, but I haven't even taken the course yet so there isn't any point in buying one yet.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I'm having a hard time visualizing "excessive recoil" from a 40 Short & Weak in even the most compact version I've seen.