Author Topic: Throttle Control  (Read 1229 times)

Offline Dichotomy

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Throttle Control
« on: July 19, 2010, 09:03:09 PM »
One thing I absolutely KNEW I was screwing up a couple of years back was my throttle control.  I had a tendency to leave it at max and try to turn with a con.  Never really mastered it but I know and knew that my throttle control needed a lot of work.  If you  are willing describe your throttle control during maneuvers.  For that matter discuss it in a climb to con or a dive on con.  I know it will be helpful to me as well as a lot of newer sticks in game. 
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2010, 07:03:41 AM »
Head to the TA, hook up with Bigrat (hes a squadmate of yours btw)

He's much better than me at teaching throttle control.  :)

A few nights of turning hawgs on the deck will teach you loads. Then you might touch base with Morfiend for more of the same only in different planes.

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 08:02:44 AM »
Week of 8/1 Ghost :)
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2010, 05:12:39 PM »
 Dicho, :salute


 While your in offline mode,try to think as if your driving a car!

 Do you step on it going into at turn? or do you break then accelerate through the turn?

 To stay under the limit,do you step on gas going downhill? or do you let off and coast?

 Same for going up hill,do you hold the gas steady? or do you step on it to maintain speed?

 Ya sort of simple annology but the principles apply and it's something you can work on yourself until you join us online. :aok


   Hope that helps.

  :salute

Offline Ghosth

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2010, 06:58:48 AM »
Morfiend pretty much nailed it.

A plane at 300 mph is going to turn a bigger circle than one at 200 mph.
Especially for the initial turn. When you can your most often better off trading that speed for alt, then turn. But that ideal is not always possible depending on the situation.

Also almost all evasive maneuvers rely to some extent on throttle control as part of the move.
If you can get the bad guy to overshoot that puts you on his 6.

Both Morfiend and Bigrat are much better at teaching throttle control than I am.


Offline wgmount

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2010, 12:58:30 PM »
Dicho, :salute


 While your in offline mode,try to think as if your driving a car!

 Do you step on it going into at turn? or do you break then accelerate through the turn?

 To stay under the limit,do you step on gas going downhill? or do you let off and coast?

 Same for going up hill,do you hold the gas steady? or do you step on it to maintain speed?

 Ya sort of simple annology but the principles apply and it's something you can work on yourself until you join us online. :aok


   Hope that helps.

  :salute


And sometimes it's like a truck and you need to give it some gas going down one hill to get up the other hill.

Throttle control and SA are the two hardest things about this game to me. I have been playing a year now and I'm still pretty bad at both.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 01:02:30 PM by wgmount »
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Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2010, 01:01:09 PM »
I'll be on next Saturday Morf.  <S>
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2010, 01:30:21 PM »
You'll have all the help in the world with the posters already but I'd just add one thing that has not been mentioned and I belive it vital. No hesitation. You are either playing a possitive or negative energy advantage. You must decide instantly and work the throttle accordingly. Negative energy possitions often require 0% throttle, as even 5% power on is pulling your through the air hindering deceleration. Any hesitation to dumping that speed will lower the chances of success. The ability to switch from possitive E advantage to negative E advantage (or visa versa) comes only from instant throttle work. Decide a course of action and DO NOT hesitate on the throttle.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Mace2004

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2010, 04:27:45 PM »
Well....some good advice....BUT....there's a little more to turn radius than just speed and the relationships are a bit more complicated.

Let me give you an example.  Your plane has a corner velocity of 200mph.  You find yourself pointed straight down at low altitude with very little room for recovery, your speed is 100mph, and your death clock (altimeter) is racing down to 0.  Obviously, you're going to immediately start pulling your maximum G but what about your throttle?  Do you a) throttle back, or b) go full power and WEP?  99% of all pilots will chose "a" and 99% will be wrong.  This is because what you need in this situation is your absolute smallest turn radius to keep from smacking into the deck.  Your smallest turn radius occurs when pulling your maximum G at corner velocity which, in this case, is 200mph.  Seems counter-intuitive to the casual observer doesn't it?  It's even more counter-intuitive when you're the one looking at Mother Earth reaching up to smack you in the snot locker but it's true, the answer is "b".  Now, if you're in the same situation but you're at 250mph then yes, you throttle back and immediately pull max Gs to recover.  This is because when you're doing a maximum performance turn at corner you're already pulling the maximum G the airplane can structurally sustain (or you black out).  Above corner you can't pull any more G and excess speed increases your turn radius.  Even going down hill pulling max G's can slow you down (provided you don't start too fast) and once you reach corner velocity you start to throttle back up again to sustain your best turn.

Replace the "ground" in this example with the bottom of a looping fight.  As you nose over at the top you should be using full power (unless you're slow and have issues with excessive torque) and continue this as you go downhill until you accelerate to near corner velocity then throttle back to maintain corner at max G across the bottom of the loop then, as soon at your nose passes the horizon coming up hit full power again.

Now, there are times when this doesn't apply say, for instance, you're diving in on a slower low altitude target and you want to drop right into his control zone.  You don't want to overshoot and you're not planning on going back up again, you want to saddle up so speed can be your enemy.  In this case throttle at idle and a bit of sideslip and G can be used to control your rate of descent to arrive at your desired position with the desired closure.

How about flat turns? If you're well above corner throttle back and then get back on the throttle when near corner.  That will give you your best start but you can't sustain that unless you're going down hill.  Say you're locked in a sustained flat turning fight on the deck at 120mph.  Do not throttle back.  You can not reduce your turn radius by reducing power here because you're below corner, you can only improve it by accelerating to corner velocity and in a WWII aircraft you cannot accelerate in a flat turn at max sustained G.  As a matter of fact you need all the power you have to give you your best sustained turn.  About the only time you want to throttle back in this sort of turn is if you're just a bit too fast for flaps but it all depends on your strategy and the aircraft you're in.  What you can do if your adversary has a better turn rate is to ease your turn a bit (throttle at max) to gain some additional speed then start to transition from a flat turn into a series of high and low yo-yo's.  In the high yo-yo you can use rudder to again assist in pointing your nose and reduce your turn radius.  You can actually begin to build your speed doing this provided your adversary isn't too deep into your knickers already or his airplane has a significant performance advantage on you.

There are also many occasions when the time it takes to get from point A to point B matters.  Go too fast and you can overshoot and fly out in front but slow down and he'll fly out in front of you.  Scissors is a great example.  In this case, you're not really concerned with either instantaneous or sustained turn capability and you're not really using G to turn the aircraft, you're more pointing it.  You can get well below corner and use the aircraft's pitch or yaw rate to point the nose where you want to go and end up with a very tight radius.  In the flat scissors for instance, you get your nose up and throttle back to slow down to just above stall speed (flaps down!) but it's important to realize that you must then throttle back up to sustain yourself on the edge of stall.  This is the backside of the power curve where it actually takes more power to fly slower.  You can still "turn" but the turn is basically done by using rudder to "point" your nose and lift from your wings is primarily just keeping you in the air.  

Another example is the vertical reversal.  You use full power to zoom climb and, at the top you slow to just above stall then use pitch and/or yaw to point the nose down.  Again, you're not using G to turn the airplane (or maybe just a bit) but, since you're so slow it's really the pitch and/or yaw being used to point the nose.    In this case you use full power in the climb and, with many airplanes the torque actually assists you in yawing/rolling the aircraft around but be aware that you may need to throttle back to reduce torque effects, particularly if (for most airplanes) you want to roll/yaw right.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 07:28:52 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline Dichotomy

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2010, 05:00:23 PM »
Mace and Mechanic.... big thanks.. that's what I was looking for.  Maces should be posted somewhere or stickied.  One of my biggest problems back in the day was just setting the throttle to full out and trying to get the plane to go where I wanted to and using WEP for a little boost of speed.  Definitely not the right solution when jousting with a vet assassin. 
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Offline SAJ73

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2010, 08:18:59 PM »
Well....some good advice....BUT....there's a little more to turn radius than just speed and the relationships are a bit more complicated.

Let me give you an example.  Your plane has a corner velocity of 200mph.  You find yourself pointed straight down at low altitude with very little room for recovery, your speed is 100mph, and your death clock (altimeter) is racing down to 0.  Obviously, you're going to immediately start pulling your maximum G but what about your throttle?  Do you a) throttle back, or b) go full power and WEP?  99% of all pilots will chose "a" and 99% will be wrong.  This is because what you need in this situation is your absolute smallest turn radius to keep from smacking into the deck.  Your smallest turn radius occurs when pulling your maximum G at corner velocity which, in this case, is 200mph.  Seems counter-intuitive to the casual observer doesn't it?  It's even more counter-intuitive when you're the one looking at Mother Earth reaching up to smack you in the snot locker but it's true, the answer is "b".  Now, if you're in the same situation but you're at 250mph then yes, you throttle back and immediately pull max Gs to recover.  This is because when you're doing a maximum performance turn at corner you're already pulling the maximum G the airplane can structurally sustain (or you black out).  Above corner you can't pull any more G and excess speed increases your turn radius.  Even going down hill pulling max G's can slow you down (provided you don't start too fast) and once you reach corner velocity you start to throttle back up again to sustain your best turn.

Replace the "ground" in this example with the bottom of a looping fight.  As you nose over at the top you should be using full power (unless you're slow and have issues with excessive torque) and continue this as you go downhill until you accelerate to near corner velocity then throttle back to maintain corner at max G across the bottom of the loop then, as soon at your nose passes the horizon coming up hit full power again.

Now, there are times when this doesn't apply say, for instance, you're diving in on a slower low altitude target and you want to drop right into his control zone.  You don't want to overshoot and you're not planning on going back up again, you want to saddle up so speed can be your enemy.  In this case throttle at idle and a bit of sideslip and G can be used to control your rate of descent to arrive at your desired position with the desired closure.

How about flat turns? If you're well above corner throttle back and then get back on the throttle when near corner.  That will give you your best start but you can't sustain that unless you're going down hill.  Say you're locked in a sustained flat turning fight on the deck at 120mph.  Do not throttle back.  You can not reduce your turn radius by reducing power here because you're below corner, you can only improve it by accelerating to corner velocity and in a WWII aircraft you cannot accelerate in a flat turn at max sustained G.  As a matter of fact you need all the power you have to give you your best sustained turn.  About the only time you want to throttle back in this sort of turn is if you're just a bit too fast for flaps but it all depends on your strategy and the aircraft you're in.  What you can do if your adversary has a better turn rate is to ease your turn a bit (throttle at max) to gain some additional speed then start to transition from a flat turn into a series of high and low yo-yo's.  In the high yo-yo you can use rudder to again assist in pointing your nose and reduce your turn radius.  You can actually begin to build your speed doing this provided your adversary isn't too deep into your knickers already or his airplane has a significant performance advantage on you.

There are also many occasions when the time it takes to get from point A to point B matters.  Go too fast and you can overshoot and fly out in front but slow down and he'll fly out in front of you.  Scissors is a great example.  In this case, you're not really concerned with either instantaneous or sustained turn capability and you're not really using G to turn the aircraft, you're more pointing it.  You can get well below corner and use the aircraft's pitch or yaw rate to point the nose where you want to go and end up with a very tight radius.  In the flat scissors for instance, you get your nose up and throttle back to slow down to just above stall speed (flaps down!) but it's important to realize that you must then throttle back up to sustain yourself on the edge of stall.  This is the backside of the power curve where it actually takes more power to fly slower.  You can still "turn" but the turn is basically done by using rudder to "point" your nose and lift from your wings is primarily just keeping you in the air.  

Another example is the vertical reversal.  You use full power to zoom climb and, at the top you slow to just above stall then use pitch and/or yaw to point the nose down.  Again, you're not using G to turn the airplane (or maybe just a bit) but, since you're so slow it's really the pitch and/or yaw being used to point the nose.    In this case you use full power in the climb and, with many airplanes the torque actually assists you in yawing/rolling the aircraft around but be aware that you may need to throttle back to reduce torque effects, particularly if (for most airplanes) you want to roll/yaw right.

Great post!  :aok

Absolutely worthy of a stickie..  :salute
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Offline thud123

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2010, 10:04:21 PM »
<snip>
"Your smallest turn radius occurs when pulling your maximum G at corner velocity"

Nice write-up Mace but is the above statement true? I always thought your best turn RATE (degrees per second) occurs at max G at corner. I might have my terms mixed up tho.

Thanks,

- Thud


Offline Agent360

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2010, 10:47:04 PM »
Mace gives a very good explanation.

I will add a few things.

Most throttle work is done BEFORE the turn is made. You must allow lead time for the plane to slow or accelerate....plus a little for typical internet lag.

An example.
After a top turn in rolling scissors the nose is now down and you are slow.....100 mph or less.
You need to accelerate to 200 ish but that happens pretty quick in most planes.

If you wait until you are at 200 ish then chop throttle you will go beyond your target speed and end up at 300 before you know what happened.

So you must plan ahead...knowing you will accelerate nose down with gravity...so you go full on throttle for a sec then you pull it off and begin your nose up pull...even some rudder to control things. Pulling up at the bottom of the "egg" with throttle on wont work...you wil end up mushing and stalling. You want to dive in OFF throttle...get the nose to pull up then WEP it up.

This sounds dumb but...

Fly some sorties in your choice of plane...when you engage, get to the fight...etc...fly at HALF throttle only. DO NOT TOUCH THE THROTTLE. You will use gravity and angles to maintain your energy. During this drill you will be saying to yourself...."man i need some throttle" or " I need to slow down". But still....dont touch the throttle. Fly the best you can using roll, climb, dive and turn to do what ever it takes to achieve guns.

If you do this drill in real time you will quickly understand when to throttle on and off. You have to do this enough times to understand what the sight picture looks like when your too fast or too slow.

Lastly, over use of the rudder will burn your energy unnecceralily. I once flew with a bad stick that had no rudder. I was amazed at how much I DIDNT NEED THE RUDDER. Proper use of roll and throttle is better than using the rudder as a crutch.

Throttle work is usually an affair of off - on -half-on-wep-flaps-no flaps-off-wep.


Offline Mace2004

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2010, 11:09:16 PM »
Nice write-up Mace but is the above statement true? I always thought your best turn RATE (degrees per second) occurs at max G at corner. I might have my terms mixed up tho.
Yes, Thud, it's correct.  Corner is the aircraft's minimum radius and maximum turn rate for all the AH plane set.  

Check out this diagram that Badboy did for the F4U:



The curved blue line on the left is the lift limit.  Follow that all the way up to the top (6g) and that's corner. Read directly across to the left and you'll see it has a maximum of 31Deg/Sec while if you extrapolate the diagonal line from corner you'll see turn radius is about 650ft.  Get below corner and Deg/Sec drops off and turn radius increases.  It's interesting to see that while radius increases, it does so at a fairly low rate with only 50ft separating corner and best sustained turn but the Deg/Sec drops off drastically with a loss of 23 Deg/Sec.  You can see why corner can be so important.  Not only is the radius smaller at corner but the F4U will get his nose around almost twice as fast at corner over sustained turn.  Also notice that above corner rate and radius do the same as below corner but radius increases more rapidly than turn rate decreases.

Here's another that shows three different aircraft and you can see the same thing with all three:

« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 11:19:16 PM by Mace2004 »
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Offline thud123

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Re: Throttle Control
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2010, 11:33:50 PM »
Thanks Mace!

I've got a lot to learn and I'll try to keep it at "Corner" :)

-thud