Author Topic: Upgrading my PC  (Read 2438 times)

Offline Greebo

  • Skinner Team
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7073
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2010, 10:39:24 AM »
Thanks for the suggestions, I have already tried some of those while mucking about trying to find the cause of the lockups. The PSU has IIRC 700W and there is plenty of cooling, temps are fine. I'll check up on voltages and HDD though. I run FS Autostart to disable services already.

The lockups are rare enough (about once every couple of weeks) that's it not a major issue, particularly as they almost always happen right after I log in to an arena. After the lockup the game's textures are swapped about randomly but alt tabbing out and in restores the textures. Skuzzy suggested disabling shadows which I think may have helped but not has completely eliminated the problem. If anyone can suggest a fix though, I'd be grateful. Here's a link to my dxdiag output: dxdiag

The main reason for upgrading is not the lockups but to get some extra memory, although a CPU boost would be nice as well. I've very roughly totted up the two upgrade options. It works out about £300-£350 more to go the I5/motherboard/4MB RAM route than the E6600/4MB RAM option. There's not a big price difference between the dearest quad and dual core I5s, but the duals are clocked higher. Apparently both can be O/C'd well above 3 ghz with better than stock cooling though.

I'm leaning towards the I5 option simply because upgrading the current setup seems a bit of a dead end and I'd probably have to do it again in a year or two. 4GB RAM is its practical limit due to the motherboard's RAM issues and I'd guess new CPU upgrades for it are not likely to appear. The I5 option would let me go to 8 GB RAM later on if needed and would be more likely to have better CPUs released later on.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2010, 11:25:57 AM by Greebo »

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2010, 01:57:39 PM »
I am surprised you are not seeing freeze ups or hesitations more frequently with the X-Fi. In fact Im surprised you arent mentioning random reboots or complete system lock ups (now your calling them lockups it doesnt force you to reboot does it?). Otherwise you caught on to precisely why I suggested the items that I did. Should you end up going that route I think you will find the system works much better for your image work.

I might also suggest the latest version of Paintshop Photo Pro X3. They keep sending me upgrade suggestions but I just bought the program back in March for FSX skins (version X2). Right now they have it set at 30% off which means $70 (US). The upgrade is $10 less but I dont think your current version is included as upgradeable. I run it along side an old copy (version 4.12) that does not cause any problems with my system but that loads 1000% faster and that comes in very handy for changing file types. Im pretty sure you will have everything you need for AH skins.

You might be able to continue using what you have now by eliminating the SB card and getting the HT Omega Striker (doesnt have the latency build up issue of the SB) and upgrading Paintshop. Of course that also increases your upgrade cost should you decide to go with the i5 also.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Greebo

  • Skinner Team
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7073
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2010, 03:28:32 PM »
Poor choice of words on my part, it's not a lockup but a freeze in the program for about 5 secs or so. Other than this the system behaves itself no problem. I've just had a quick search on the web but there doesn't seem to be a UK stockist for the Striker. Some places are selling the Asus Xonar, otherwise it seems to be nothing but Creative. IIRC there's an old SB Audigy 2 lying in a box somewhere around here, would that be any better than the X-Fi?

I've looked at newer versions of PSP and did a month's trial a year or two back but it would have taken a while to get confident with the new version's layout. They seem to have developed it mainly for editing digital photos and as I couldn't see anything there which would help me create skins I decided not to bother. I may have another look though.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2010, 04:26:22 PM »
You might write to sales@htomega.com and see if there is a local distributor.

When I bought the Paintshop program the sales department made available three webinars which got me up to speed quickly. A few of the newer tools like background erase and layers I cant live without now that I have them. I think you can see how layers would come in handy for changing paint colors without affecting panel lines and rivets and so on. I never had that before. Now I have Photoshop also and for professional work it comes in very handy too but its too much money unless you must have it.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Greebo

  • Skinner Team
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7073
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2010, 05:03:08 AM »
I've done a bit of web research and the freezing/texture swap issue seems to a problem with the video card. Came across several threads in Nvidia and O/Cing forums with GTX 260 owners having similar problems. Apparently the only cure is to gradually reduce the card's GPU and memory clock speeds until the problem goes away. Changing drivers does not seem to help (already tried that anyway). Also its not directly related to heat, the card's not getting anywhere near hot enough for that to be an issue. I'll see if I can get a stable clock setting that lets me run AH at 60fps. Next time I'll go ATI I think. BTW I just had the same freeze/texture swap thing happen in Civ 4, so its definitely not an AH related issue.

I really don't like the latest PSP, seems bloated and slow and has some sort of spyware copy protection too. Trouble is PSP 7 apparently has issues with Windows 7. It works for some people and not for others, or at least not properly. I'm wondering if getting Win 7 Professional and using its XP emulator might help here.

I emailed HT Omega, they don't sell the Striker over here but I can order it through them and get it shipped to the UK. I'll see if I can cure the issue with the video card settings first though.

I'm going to do some more research before making a decision on upgrading, but thanks again for everyone's help in this thread.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 05:08:40 AM by Greebo »

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2010, 08:58:22 AM »
I am surprised you are not seeing freeze ups or hesitations more frequently with the X-Fi. In fact Im surprised you arent mentioning random reboots or complete system lock ups (now your calling them lockups it doesnt force you to reboot does it?).

While I understand from your numerous threads that you don't like Creative sound cards I and many many other people have X-fi's that don't create any problems whatsoever.  There was a well documented driver issue with the release of Vista but even that only seemed to affect systems sporadicallly.

As to the bloatware, I agree they include a lot of useless stuff but you do have the option to selectively instal only what you want (i.e. drivers only).

I've never had freeze ups or hesitations, random reboots or complete system lock ups as you seem to imply all X-fi users will experience.  <edited>
« Last Edit: July 25, 2010, 09:05:49 AM by BaldEagl »
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2010, 02:41:06 PM »
While I understand from your numerous threads that you don't like Creative sound cards I and many many other people have X-fi's that don't create any problems whatsoever.  There was a well documented driver issue with the release of Vista but even that only seemed to affect systems sporadicallly.

As to the bloatware, I agree they include a lot of useless stuff but you do have the option to selectively instal only what you want (i.e. drivers only).

I've never had freeze ups or hesitations, random reboots or complete system lock ups as you seem to imply all X-fi users will experience.  <edited>

Creative was caught pushing 16 bit sound cards there were actually 16 bit cards and thats what started things rolling for me (I had one of them). Its also true that Sound Blaster cards are full of latency. Whether you like it or not doesnt really matter because there are so many systems on the market and you almost never encounter the same mix of devices and programs. For instance the Sound Blaster Live! cards which are very popular because they are affordable also come with up to 46ms of latency which is on the very edge of acceptability. When Audigy was released it promised 0 latency which turned out to be more like 4-7ms of latency. Then video cards started to carry audio capabilities and system chipsets started to 'try' to force their GPU chips as the 'goto' cards on their motherboards. Sound Blaster was caught in the mix as Nvidia chipsets on SLI systems were (and are) preventing Crossfire from working and inadvertently causing increased latency buildup from XFi chips. Unless you shutdown your system every night you will eventually experience a complete system lockup IF you have a XFi along with an Nvidia chipset and GPUs in SLI. You dont really need to have SLI either but the lockups occur more frequently if you do.

The fact remains that even though Sound Blaster cards are as popular as they are you can do much better for the same price.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2010, 12:52:17 AM »
I dont think I mean 16 bit were 16 bit. Creative was calling 16 bit cards 24 bit cards. Thats what I meant.

When I started to play with VOX tweaking and special Vox F/X I learned right away that most of the 44.1 or 48Khz cards are not up to processing F/X. I even asked one of our audio gurus about it and he suggested what I was experiencing was impedance problems but it turned out it was sampling rate conversions (SRC) that were going on behind the scenes. Both Live! and Audigy (also Audigy2) are guilty of SRC both pre and post processing which is what makes the latency issues worse than they should be (this information comes from Martin Walker at www.soundonsound.com). For gaming we dont really need very good sound cards but they have to be great at what they are (supposedly) designed to do (gaming) and for the purposes of vox they MUST be low latency.

This is the way audio processing works on a card designed to offload processing to the cpu as it was explained to me (and sound gurus forgive me if I get this off a bit): If you are flying and chatting with a few friends and you are all in the same plane then the actual sounds loaded in the background are fairly easy to work out and your cpu is having an easy time of it. Then you come into a fight and suddenly there are a lot more friendlies and enemies too and the audio files for all the various planes are loaded and processed through the cpu BUT the cpu was only using a small portion of its capability for audio before and now the requirements are three times higher. So what happens is every thing hits the mud and slows down and you see it as if the computer hit a brick wall. Your screne freezes and audio pauses and then even when it comes back its slow and jerky and then finally it smooths out when the cpu has enough room made available for the audio. Nasty!

So you want a card that can handle all of its own processing without requiring anything out of the CPU. I think there are only two SBs even capable of that and even they use too much CPU. If you are doing any type of vox F/X you want to be able to get to at least 24 bit and 96 Khz. If you dont care about vox F/X you can get away with 24 bit and 44.1 Khz. 16 bit introduces far too much noise and increases the likelihood of other problems (noise will destroy your speakers for one thing). The human voice is like a musical instrument in a lot of ways and so you should allow as much sampling as possible and from what I have learned in playing with F/X you wan to use as much as your card and your system can handle. So even though I point to the Striker as a great card (it is) I intend to use the Claro Halo XT for F/X. The reason is that it can reach 192 Khz which with the new Miles system should allow great vox F/X (lets see).

The problems I have with Creative still hold though. They advertised falsely on at least three of their cards. Their cards are noisy and introduce too much latency (latency is never a good thing but terrible in combat gaming) and they use far too much CPU.

Now having said that you should also know that probably the reason you dont have problems with Sound Blaster is that you dont have SLI or an Nvidia chipset and you probably have a fast enough system that when the smaller problems pop up they are not as obvious. Well I should also tell you that you must have a faster system in order to make use of higher sampling rates or you will run into the same problems.

Now Skuzzy can correct anything I got wrong but dont waste money on this junk anyway... times are tough and the price of one card could feed you for a month.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline BaldEagl

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10791
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #23 on: July 26, 2010, 01:11:26 AM »
Nope.  I've got an eVGA (NVidia) 780i motherboard and I did run in SLI for a week or two with no problems.  I've also, in addition to your first laudry list, never experienced audio latency.  In-game vox causes no issues.

I also forgot to mention that while I do usually shut down each night there have been times I've let my computer run for several weeks at a time.  Still no problems.  Shouldn't it have exploded and burnt the house down or something?
I edit a lot of my posts.  Get used to it.

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2010, 03:36:43 AM »
Now your being ridiculous. Which X-Fi are you using? I have used the X-Fi XtremeGamer 5.1 which was and is so latency laden it doesnt really deserve to be called a sound card (its that bad) and the X-Fi Xtreme Audio 7.1 which was just a little better. While not as 'Xtreme'-ly burdened with latency the X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1 (the newest version) is still burdened with latency buildup and more noise than a house full of rugrats.

Just do a search for "X-Fi (your choice of XtremeNames) problems" or ".... noise" or "... static" sometime.

Dont look too deep or you might find noise at the bottom of that rabbit hole.  :aok
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline guncrasher

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17417
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2010, 04:32:59 PM »
Bottom line which sound card is great while reasonably priced?.

Semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Ghastly

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1756
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2010, 04:39:21 PM »
Bottom line which sound card is great while reasonably priced?.

Semp

+1

I'd like to know too.

I'm a little frustrated at how difficult it's been trying to get everything installed correctly (drivers) for the X-FI that came bundled with my mobo.  The next problem I have with it, it gets binned.
"Curse your sudden (but inevitable!) betrayal!"
Grue

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2010, 05:08:19 PM »
I went through three different SBs before I came upon one that seemed to work. Each time I spent more money and each time I was dissappointed. Finally I had spent the $100 on a SB X-Fi XtremeGamer 7.1 and things were looking really good until it started sounding static-burdened and then mysteriously stopped working. After a reboot it was working again but static was always present and AH would occasionally lockup.

I read reviews all over the net and tossed the SBs and bought a bGears bEnspirer that worked fine for a year and then expired six days before the warranty. So I had newegg replace it with a Striker (HT Omega) which means I lost about $35 on the deal but its still less than the X-Fi I last had and the bGears card worked for a year also.

The only thing you should take into consideration is that the Striker is limited to 44.1Khz or 48Khz. Thats just fine for AH (perfect actually) but it will not be adequate for F/X like vocoder mixing with instrument inputs or things like that (not sure what you use audio for besides games). The Striker runs for $85 ($75 right now with free shipping) and I have never known it to have a problem with any system (I build about a dozen systems a year which isnt a whole lot really).

If you want even more audio its going to get more expensive ($200-1000).
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22416
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2010, 06:35:32 PM »
I've heard nothing but good things about ASUS Sound Cards and some are less than $100.
FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: Upgrading my PC
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2010, 07:20:25 PM »
UPDATE: Striker is limited to 44.1Khz and 48Khz in Vista or Windows 7 but 96Khz under XP.

ASUS Xonar can do 192Khz except the DS 7.1 is also a noisy card (107db SNR) versus the Xonar D2 (118db SNR) but unfortunately there isnt a good Win 7 driver yet (some people report it wont work at all with Win 7). Not sure about the D1 although at one point I was considering buying one.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.