Author Topic: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?  (Read 5203 times)

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #75 on: August 07, 2010, 01:10:52 PM »
Sorta NCLawman. In worst case scenario, opposite side of earth, the signal has to travel 20000km at 300km/s. That makes the theoretical minimum lag about 66 ms. I have about half that distance from my home (so 33ms away) and I get a regular ping time around 180. So like you said, the major factor is the data processing at servers, but the physical restriction is in the measurable range.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 01:14:00 PM by LLv34_Snefens »
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Offline NCLawman

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #76 on: August 07, 2010, 01:40:48 PM »
Actually in re-reading my post I realized that I have made a typo... the speed of light is actually 186K per second (not hour).  Please excuse the error.
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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #77 on: August 07, 2010, 01:46:54 PM »
unfortunately it's not one strait line from a computer in Europe to the server in Texas. It has to go though 20+ servers and who knows how many connections all of which slow it down some.

Offline NCLawman

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #78 on: August 07, 2010, 01:52:19 PM »
unfortunately it's not one strait line from a computer in Europe to the server in Texas. It has to go though 20+ servers and who knows how many connections all of which slow it down some.

That is correct.  Which reinforces the point that lag is related to computer(s) processing power rather than the speed vs. distance in which the data must travel.  If I am in NC and trying to communicate with the server in TX, but for whatever reason I must route through 8 servers to get there, my lag will LIKELY be higher than a person from Europe whose info only bounced on this occasion through 3 servers, correct? (That is not to say that this is a factual case, but rather the determining factor in lag delay is more closely tied to the number of junctions a signal must travel rather than physical distance.   Would I be correct in that hypothesis?)

Factor also in the fact that some ISP have given priority to specific types of communications.  (IE not all internet traffic is created equal.)  I know that there has been some fight and legislation here in the States to regulate or rather de-regulate the internet traffic.  That is to say that it is first come first serve rather than prioritizing certain traffic and giving it "a cut in line" so to speak.  This also could cause delays resulting in game lag.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2010, 01:55:54 PM by NCLawman »
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Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #79 on: August 07, 2010, 03:53:16 PM »
Took me a bit to find the tools, but:

(Image removed from quote.)

Excellent job.  I'll save this, or the link, and spam it in every collisiom thread.

Thank you very much for your work.


I could very well be mistaken on the following point, but if I am correct in my understanding, the speed at which the data travels is near the speed of light (186K mph).  Given the distance between Texas and Europe (or anywhere in the world) the overall time difference is so small as to be a non-factor.  The lag effect relates more the the communicating computers ability to process the information received (i.e how much data it can handle and calculate at once) once it arrives at its destination as well as the ability (i.e. how much data) it can send out to the receiving computer/server.

On this point, I would ask that you NOT take as cast-in-stone.  I could be incorrect in my thinking.  There may be others who can refute or corroborate the logic.  But it is something to think about.

Hitech stated at one point that the further away you were, the less frequent position updates are.  That is why you will see a distant dot jump along instead of moving linearly.

Just think of the map as being "updated" instead of being "real time".  Not so much to do with distance data is travelling at all.


wrongway


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Offline Ghastly

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #80 on: August 07, 2010, 05:31:02 PM »
Hence this topic can turn into an emotional roller coaster ride like it has done ( but was it a fun roller coaster ride  :headscratch: :headscratch: )

 :rolleyes:

Yeah, it's a real hoot - it never get's old, even though we went through it over and over the first hundred or so times more than a decade ago for many of us (how much over for some of us some of you new guys might not believe if you knew.)

<S>





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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #81 on: August 07, 2010, 11:31:49 PM »
What I find ironic is that two planes can collide but only one reports damage and yet you can keep an airplane in front of you but still shoot you down.  I fly the only spitfire that doesn't have a tail gunner :).



Semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline Blooz

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #82 on: August 08, 2010, 07:42:04 AM »
What I find ironic is that two planes can collide but only one reports damage and yet you can keep an airplane in front of you but still shoot you down.  I fly the only spitfire that doesn't have a tail gunner :).

Semp
What's so tough to figure out?
This isn't real life. Your computer is communicating with another computer in Texas and that data has to flow through many other computers along the way. This may take several seconds. What you see on your screen and what the other guy sees on his screen are two different things due to this time delay.

Whether or not you take damage in a collision depends on what the computer (game server) in Texas saw. There are only three choices.

#1-If the game server sees that you and the other guy occupied the same space at the same time (you have collided, so and so has collided with you) you will both take damage.

#2-If you crash into someone else (you have collided) but the server sees that the other guy wasn't involved (the communication time delay thing... see video image above) you take damage.

#3-If someone crashes into you (so and so has collided with you) and the game server in Texas sees that you weren't involved (the time delay thing again) he takes damage and you fly away.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #83 on: August 08, 2010, 08:15:20 AM »
Wrong server doesn't see anything.  Server only sees what my puter tells it.


Semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline AWwrgwy

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #84 on: August 08, 2010, 08:26:02 AM »
What I find ironic is that two planes can collide but only one reports damage and yet you can keep an airplane in front of you but still shoot you down.  I fly the only spitfire that doesn't have a tail gunner :).



Semp

The issue isn't "two planes collide" and that is what seems to confuse and confound everyone. 

The only time two planes collide is when you see on your screen SoandSo has collided with you and You have collided.

Otherwise, only one plane collided and takes damage from the collision.

And, as stated above somewhere, collisions are determined by what is seen on each player's front end.  Both planes are not necessarily in the same place at the same time as seen on each players screen.  Ever been shot by someone after they have passed you on your screen?

I also contend that 90% of damage taken on a nose to nose pass involving a "collision" is due to bullets.

Hello HO.


wrongway
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Offline Ghosth

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #85 on: August 08, 2010, 08:26:21 AM »
If it helps think of your Front End and his FE as being wonder woman's invisible plane. No one can see it, but you can see out of it. Since you can't fight what you can't see, HT coaded it so each of those invisible planes tows the image of your plane behind you.

When your shooting, your in the invisible plane, shooting at the target towed by the other guy.
Its done on your end with your FE. If you manage the lead and the timing correctly you'll hit the other guys towed target. At that point AH sends the other guy a packet of info that says you've been shot in (this location) with (These guns) taking (this much) damage. Your FE calculates the damage, your wing falls off, your pilot is dead you go poof.

So the gunnery side is actually pretty simple, with one minor caveat.
When your in a fight with someone, your not seeing his invisible plane where he sits with the guns.
Your seeing the plane shaped target that he is towing behind him. And the rope length towing is is directly tied to his connection to HTC. So he is actually closer to you than it appears, he may be a lot closer. He may in fact be almost ready to shoot, depending on where you see his towed target, and what maneuvers your both doing.

Now with collisions the same situation apply's, but remember, you can't see, or run into him, in his invisible plane. You can only run into his towed target.   But the ropes are not the same length! So you have no way of being able to tell where he is. All you can see is his towed target. This is why you can not "ram". In order to do a true ram you would have to know how long his rope is, then try to fly ahead of his towed target so that he runs into your towed target. But you don't really even know how long your rope is, much less his.
So up to this point no one has ever posted film proving that it is even possible. So there is no "Ram"

So on his FE, he see's you coming, he sees that you are going to run into each other, and he jerks his stick, causing his plane to move and just miss hitting your towed target. So on "His FE" there was no collision. He saw a miss, no collision happened, so he took no damage. Not from a collision, if you were shooting yes he'd take that damage. But he has not run into anything. So he will not take damage from running into something.

On your invisible plane you didn't see it happening quite in time. So you run into the plane shaped target he's towing.  Your FE goes "Danger Will Robinson!" Does the math to see which parts intersected with which parts, does the damage to your plane, and sends him the message that on your FE you ran into him.

Remember, you did not run into him, you ran into his towed target. You can't run into him, because he's in Wonder Woman's invisible plane.

The other thing that comes into play, is that just before you run into his towed target, the other guy may be shooting at you as well. So you get all the damage all at once, from both his guns, and your collision.

And you go Poof, and your back in the tower shaking your fist and cursing the other guy.
When you should be looking in the mirror and saying "Grow UP" Cause only you can prevent collisions.
Only you can educate yourself so that you understand what happens and how to avoid it.

If you were in a collision, its Y O U R fault.
Your control of your airplane put you in that situation.
No exceptions, no excuses, no whining.

Fly to miss the other guy, and you will.



Offline Tec

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #86 on: August 08, 2010, 01:43:06 PM »
Can someone give me a ride to the ER?  I just facepalmed so hard I broke my nose, and now my eyes are swelling shut.
To each their pwn.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #87 on: August 08, 2010, 04:35:25 PM »
The issue isn't "two planes collide" and that is what seems to confuse and confound everyone.  

The only time two planes collide is when you see on your screen SoandSo has collided with you and You have collided.

Otherwise, only one plane collided and takes damage from the collision.

And, as stated above somewhere, collisions are determined by what is seen on each player's front end.  Both planes are not necessarily in the same place at the same time as seen on each players screen.  Ever been shot by someone after they have passed you on your screen?

I also contend that 90% of damage taken on a nose to nose pass involving a "collision" is due to bullets.

Hello HO.


wrongway
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Offline Beefcake

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #88 on: August 08, 2010, 05:02:16 PM »
I find it incredible that some people can just not grasp this concept. I find it even more incredible that some people here refuse to grasp the concept and continue to want it done the "other way".

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Collision: how is / should this scenario be scored?
« Reply #89 on: August 08, 2010, 05:07:33 PM »
I find it incredible that some people can just not grasp this concept.

Some things are even more incredible.

A few weeks ago OG (then named Bruno or Pruno) was boasting on 200 about "finally having exposed me as a LIAR" when I tried to explain the concept of lag an the resulting different realities on our screens.  :lol
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