Author Topic: ground casualties from air air combat?  (Read 1295 times)

Offline Blue

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ground casualties from air air combat?
« on: August 06, 2010, 01:59:00 PM »
So I was wondering, during air combat there is a lot of lead and metal being slung around.  Bullets, shell casings, flak, debris, etc. etc..

Are there any reports of this stuff coming down and causing damage/casualties?

I mean think of some of the bombing raids and the amount of flak that was put up.  It had to come down, and it is said that a penny dropped of the Empire State building can kill somebody if it strikes them.

I imagine flak or bullets/cannon rounds would do the same.

Any thoughts or documentation on this?

Offline Bear76

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2010, 02:03:45 PM »
So I was wondering, during air combat there is a lot of lead and metal being slung around.  Bullets, shell casings, flak, debris, etc. etc..

Are there any reports of this stuff coming down and causing damage/casualties?

I mean think of some of the bombing raids and the amount of flak that was put up.  It had to come down, and it is said that a penny dropped of the Empire State building can kill somebody if it strikes them.

I imagine flak or bullets/cannon rounds would do the same.

Any thoughts or documentation on this?

In the raid on Pearl Harbor, several civilian deaths and injuries, as well as property damage, were attributed to friendly AA fire.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2010, 02:04:42 PM »
I'm sure that was a reality of war. Think of all the bullits fired at aircraft and where they had to land.

Quite a bit of damage in the surrounding sector of Pearl Harbor had damage from the AA on the ships.



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Offline whiteman

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2010, 02:09:41 PM »
like they said, plus a penny dropped of the empire state building or any building can't kill you. My dads cousin got KTFO by a hailstone the size of a softball, if a penny could kill you that thing should have exploded his head.

Offline SlapShot

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #4 on: August 06, 2010, 02:17:10 PM »
it is said that a penny dropped of the Empire State building can kill somebody if it strikes them.

Mythbusters tested this ... BUSTED !!!
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Offline Dr_Death8

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #5 on: August 06, 2010, 02:35:14 PM »
When I was stationed in Berlin (89-92), you would hear and read news reports where construction companies were getting injuries due to unexploded ords being hit while digging or drilling. Probably damage and deaths resulted directly from shrapnel and if you did a search on the Internet you could probably find the statistics for it somewhere.  :salute

Offline Shuffler

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #6 on: August 06, 2010, 03:38:42 PM »
Every year at New Years some idiots fire into the air. Almost without fail at least one person gets hit by a bullet dropping to earth.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #7 on: August 06, 2010, 03:48:33 PM »
When I was stationed in Berlin (89-92), you would hear and read news reports where construction companies were getting injuries due to unexploded ords being hit while digging or drilling. Probably damage and deaths resulted directly from shrapnel and if you did a search on the Internet you could probably find the statistics for it somewhere.  :salute

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Offline palef

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2010, 02:37:56 AM »
For Berlin as well as  Hamburg it's being estimated that about 3000  unexploded bombs of all sizes are still buried in the ground.

The scary thing is some of those will be 4000lb cookies.
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Offline froger

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2010, 03:19:05 AM »
Every year at New Years some idiots fire into the air. Almost without fail at least one person gets hit by a bullet dropping to earth.

best time to do a crime in Los angeles ......
in between11:45pm and 12:15 am  on new years eve

It's so bad here that all the cops hide under the freeway underpasses till the shooting stops.

I think there more stupid people with guns here in LA than in all the nation.

Rock on lead flingers  :rock



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Offline NCLawman

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2010, 09:47:29 AM »
As I am no physicist by any stretch of the imagination, the math involved most likely eludes me; however, I think I have a very gentle grasp of the topic. 

To determine the lethality of a falling object (dropped or shot from an airplane), one would first have to figure the odds of that object actually striking someone.  Then you would have to factor in (assuming a hit to someone) the object's shape and mass relative to wind resistance.  Every object has a "terminal velocity."  Regardless of how high you start an object will eventually reach the maximum speed it can travel before its wind resistance halts the acceleration.  Once its terminal velocity is reached, the object will continue to fall at the same speed regardless of how much farther it falls. 

Then you have to figure the stability of the object as it falls.  Bullets fly straight when shot because they spiral (like a football).  However, at a certain point, their path also deteriorates and the bullet or object begins to tumble.  This usually causes greater wind resistance further slowing it's free fall.  And, you would also have to factor the penetrating effect of the shape of the object.  A blunt object will be less likely to penetrate (especially a hard head like mine) than a sharp object.  Sharper objects can be more lethal because they can penetrate into deeper tissue where a blunt object MAY only give a severe headache.

But in short, it can and does happen.  A buddy of mine was actually hit from a "falling bullet" New Years Eve in Jacksonville Florida (1992).  It was a .38 slug (among many that fell) entered the top of his left shoulder and penetrated down his arm and lodged against the Humerus (bone in upper arm).  While it did penetrate, it was no where near the impact or damage that would have occurred had he been "shot" outright.
 
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Offline LLv34_Snefens

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2010, 10:57:53 AM »
Now increase the size of projectiles to say 20-30mm and add HE content :devil
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Offline Charge

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2010, 01:20:04 PM »
Many bigger caliber HE rounds 20mm+, or "grenades", had a self-destruct fuse that would explode the projectile after certain flight time to prevent casualties on the ground.

AFAIK for mine round of MG151/20 it was abt 900 yards.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2010, 01:48:27 PM »
The scary thing is some of those will be 4000lb cookies.

no...the scary thing is that someone has to go disarm those things, after they've been there for how long now?
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Offline Rino

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Re: ground casualties from air air combat?
« Reply #14 on: August 07, 2010, 02:08:37 PM »
     I remember seeing a program about EOD work in either Belgium or France where they
blew up a trench full of unexploded ordnance from world wars 1 and 2.  Apparently they do
this almost every month and the trench was a good 100 yards long!
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