Author Topic: Research of the Spit 16  (Read 8665 times)

Offline jamdive

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2010, 01:20:19 PM »
The notion that it takes no skill to be successful in the Spit 16 is as wrong as the one that it does take "more skill" in a P-51 to get kills.

What does this have to do with research of the spit 16?

Offline Lusche

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2010, 01:25:35 PM »
What does this have to do with research of the spit 16?

Ask the one spreading that kind of stuff.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2010, 01:26:33 PM »
It's not easy to get the upper hand on a single Spixteen when you're flying a 30+ ENY plane ...

 :headscratch: no of course it isnt. equal pilots, the guy flying the eg. P40 should get his arse kicked every single time vs a XVI. or a 51D. or a LA7. or a Niki. etc. that just tells me the ENY values are about right.


The notion that it takes no skill to be successful in the Spit 16 is as wrong as the one that it does take "more skill" in a P-51 to get kills.

really. it was about 6 months before I even flew a pony (about half the LWMA seemed to be flying them at the time.) within a coupla days I landed 15, only towered because I was bored stupid. you can BnZ all day in that thing without taking a scratch, any threat appears you just nose down and egress/reset. after spawn camping in a gv its about as easy mode as it gets.

What does this have to do with research of the spit 16?

nothing at all. rather like this topic. its just another pony driver wants to perk the XVI thread in disguise :rolleyes:
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2010, 01:42:53 PM »
Had HTC named it LFIXe it still wouldn't be the same plane. the LF is part of the prefix that designates its altitude role. The fan blades on the superchargers where cropped (LF) in order to give the engine more horsepower at lower altitudes. I haven't found the FXVI variant of the IX with this feature, yet. There are also HFIX, HFIXe and PRIX variants. The PR was for photo recon to my understanding. All have different performances at different altitudes. The (e) suffix just means that it had 50 cals instead of 303.
In reading the FXVI operators manual, the fuel capacities vary and also there is the addition of aft fuel tanks with a 75 gal capacity. The engine cowlings are different also due to the us. built merlin intercooler which gave it different flight characteristics. More interesting facts are that dogfighting or any non-suttle maneuvers with ordanace or extra fuel tanks would damage the aircraft and is recommended that they be jettisoned prior to any combat (for spit IX,XI,and XVI).

<Face palm>

We have an FIX in the game.  We have an LFVIII in game.  We have an LFXVI in the game.  Had they named it LFIX it would perform the same.  Having researched Spits for 30 + years, I'm going to go with what I've learned in that time.  Trust me on this one. 

Read the following carefully.  It's from the official Air Ministry publication on the Spitfire IX and XVI.  It can't be any clearer than this.

"The Mk XVI is the designation given to the Mk IX airframe when fitted with the American built Merlin engine"  Look at the specs for the LFIXe and the LFXVI.  Only difference is Rolls Merlin 66 vs Packard Merlin 266.  Same plane, same performance.  As for fuel tankage, the mods over time applied to both.  We've had this discussion many times.  I can post for you photos of a low back IX and a low back XVI that are one serial number apart.  The only difference being on the line they put a Rolls Merlin in the first and a Packard Merlin in the second due to availability at the time.

This just can't be this complicated!

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2010, 01:47:26 PM »
I actually fly alot of fighters ack, I'm not a person sitting in a P-38 like you all day. Maybe you should try flying some other fighters for once and see where that gets you.

I would be just as successful in another fighter as I would be in the P-38.  I just choose to fly a plane that takes more skill than most to fly successfully.

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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #35 on: August 09, 2010, 02:33:42 PM »
The fan blades on the superchargers where cropped (LF) in order to give the engine more horsepower at lower altitudes. I haven't found the FXVI variant of the IX with this feature, yet.

btw the cropped impeller mod was done on the earlier 40 and 50 series (early Spits, Seafires etc) which had single speed/stage superchargers. the 60 series had two speed/stage superchargers, the tweaking for different alts was done by just changing a couple of cogs in the gearbox. :)
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Offline jamdive

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #36 on: August 09, 2010, 03:39:23 PM »
btw the cropped impeller mod was done on the earlier 40 and 50 series (early Spits, Seafires etc) which had single speed/stage superchargers. the 60 series had two speed/stage superchargers, the tweaking for different alts was done by just changing a couple of cogs in the gearbox. :)

I stand corrected... Besides a few differences in the cooling systems, engine shrouds, and canopy, they are almost identicle. The only thing Ive found to be of notice was the stall characteristics due to the cowling and airflow over the bubble canopy. Other than those, I wonder what the performance differences between the LFXVI and FXVI are? How much high alt performance is lost by gearing down the supercharger and vice versa.

Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2010, 03:50:46 PM »
btw the cropped impeller mod was done on the earlier 40 and 50 series (early Spits, Seafires etc) which had single speed/stage superchargers. the 60 series had two speed/stage superchargers, the tweaking for different alts was done by just changing a couple of cogs in the gearbox. :)

Did not the 40 and 50 series Merlins have 1 stage, 2 speed superchargers?

Did not the 60 and 70 series Merlins have 2 speed, 2 stage superchargers?

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2010, 03:59:28 PM »
Due to the nature of the air war, the LF versions of the Merlin, the 66 and the Packard 266 were used for the LFIX and LFXVI.  This was because the airwar was much more tactically based and had come down in alt.  This occured in late 42-early 43, most likely due to the bombing altitudes of the medium bombers the RAF Spits escorted over France being 18K or so.  Once the ground war started things got even lower.  There are numerous photos and combat operations where the specialized Spitfire VII had it's extended wings removed and standard wingtips added in the summer of 44 so they too could be used to support the ground war.  Imagine flying a pressurized high alt fighter in a low alt war.  

The Spitfire IX went through a number of cowling changes.  It too had some built with the cut down rear fuselage and bubble canopy but this, like the XVI was very late in the war and not in large numbers.  Performance was essentially the same for the LF Spit IX and XVI.  Some pilot anecdotes suggest that the Packard was a bit rougher sounding at cruising speeds.

Trying to separate the two birds is just not worth the time as outside of identifying serial numbers, there really isn't a for sure way to tell.  Put a Rolls Merlin 66 into a Spitfire XVI and technically it becomes a Spitfire IX.  Reverse the engines and the same will make an IX into an XVI.  There are restored Spits out there that do this due to restored engine availability.

It's much ado about nothing, and considering ours is a cartoon Spitfire, it's even more of an adventure in silliness trying to make the XVI into something it's not.  

Merlin 60 series engines were the first Spit engines to go to two speed two stage superchargers.  The Spit VI was the last of the single stage superchargers.

The two stage engines could be adjusted for better performance at different height bands which lead to the HF, F, LF designations on the Spitfire IX for example.

The cropped impeller bit was on the Spitfire Vs that they were trying to improve performance on at lower alt to allow them to compete.  "Clipped, Cropped and Clapped" was the pilot's comment on those Spitfire LFVs as they were older airframes with clipped wings and cropped impellers.  They were quick down low, but performance really fell off as they got alt.

At lower alts the peformance difference between a modified LFV and a Spitfire LFIX were slight.  I believe the previous AH Spitfire Vc that got all the whines by many and is missed by the Spit drivers was based on that performance and not the earlier FV that we have now.
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2010, 04:05:13 PM »
:headscratch: no of course it isnt. equal pilots, the guy flying the eg. P40 should get his arse kicked every single time vs a XVI. or a 51D. or a LA7. or a Niki. etc. that just tells me the ENY values are about right.
Then, everyone should be flying Spixteens, to keep it even. I'd rather take my chances with a P-40 vs P-51, La7 and N1k.


The Spits are noob planes, I can get 2 kills in one and I stink in everything I fly.
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Offline lyric1

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #40 on: August 09, 2010, 04:11:19 PM »
Then, everyone should be flying Spixteens, to keep it even. I'd rather take my chances with a P-40 vs P-51, La7 and N1k.


The Spits are noob planes, I can get 2 kills in one and I stink in everything I fly.
Maybe the Brits made this aircraft user friendly to save the pilots lives & take the enemys? If so so be it.


Offline Guppy35

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #41 on: August 09, 2010, 04:16:17 PM »
Then, everyone should be flying Spixteens, to keep it even. I'd rather take my chances with a P-40 vs P-51, La7 and N1k.


The Spits are noob planes, I can get 2 kills in one and I stink in everything I fly.

You do understand that the Spitfire was an easy plane to fly in real life correct?  What an advantage it was for new pilots being sent off to war to have a bird that was user friendly.

For those of us with a history interest, the chance to hop in a cartoon version of such a fantastic bird, is hardly reason to be condemned.

While I spend 99 percent of my time in my 38G, getting in a Spit just isn't something I think should have to be apologized for.  Shoot em down if you don't like em.

Nothing better for me in my 38G to see Spitfires as chances are pretty good they are going to stick around and turn fight with me.
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Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #42 on: August 09, 2010, 04:33:47 PM »
I wonder what the performance differences between the LFXVI and FXVI are? How much high alt performance is lost by gearing down the supercharger and vice versa.

its quite a big tradeoff, heres the diff between an F IX (61/63) and an LF VIII (66):





Did not the 40 and 50 series Merlins have 1 stage, 2 speed superchargers?

Did not the 60 and 70 series Merlins have 2 speed, 2 stage superchargers?

I think there may have been a 1 speed 2 stage blower at some point but essentially early merlins had 1/1, later 2/2. you can see the difference the 2-speed gearbox makes here:

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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #43 on: August 09, 2010, 04:38:10 PM »
Maybe the Brits made this aircraft user friendly to save the pilots lives & take the enemys? If so so be it.
Pretty sure all fighter aircraft were designed with the best of intentions.


Guppy, I know all that. The thing is, when you're flying along in your 20 or 30 ENY plane and you see a dogpile of Spixteens coming at you, any attempt to avoid the most obvious outcome get's met with cries of being timid or some other b.s. Hell yeah I'm gonna be timid, I'd rather take on a group of C hogs. And lately, it's as if every single Spixteen is piloted by a HO monkey, as if the speed and bizarre agility isn't enough. Personally, unless I see <squeaker1> landed 2 kills in a Spitfire MkXVI, I laugh when someone gives a "WTG <insert name>". Go land 2 kills in a Spit V and I'll consider giving it a WTG.
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Offline dtango

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Re: Research of the Spit 16
« Reply #44 on: August 09, 2010, 05:10:34 PM »
Other than those, I wonder what the performance differences between the LFXVI and FXVI are? How much high alt performance is lost by gearing down the supercharger and vice versa.

Hmmm, I could be wrong but I think the LF XVI and F XVI are the same aircraft.  1) From what sources I could dig up both had the 266 engine (similar Pilot Manual as guppy/Corky listed except this one instead of listing it as the LF XVI, it just the F XVI instead).  2) From a listing of individual Spitfire Production records from the Air Ministry I haven't found any F XVI's, only LF XVI's.
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