109-F4 Trop Yellow 14 request

[Krusty]

Sorry for the delay. I can't post on the forums when I'm at work all day and it took me a while to read through that PDF.

It's good reading, even though the English is a bit broken in the translation.

However, the one thing that makes me curious is there is no mention of the white wingtips. There is no mention of using them, of stopping using them, no indication about white theater tail bands either. On the other hand we know there were white wingtips (if the cover art alone wasn't a clue there are photos further in of 109F2s with them).

All right, I admit it. You've intrigued me. I'd still much rather have a bit more concrete proof, though. Got any more PDFs like that? Something that mentions when they stopped using white wingtips, if only one gruppe used them, or what?

[gyrene81]

Yeah, I'm lucky most times I can browse the web from my office, unless the boss is sitting by my desk yakking at me. 

I believe there are 4 maybe 5 pdf files total. From what I have gathered thus far, the series is a time line of JG27 originally documented in Polish with English translations. Still looking and gathering.

[gyrene81]

Hey Krusty, I think I have the complete first 3 volumes of a series on JG-27, could be the entire history of the unit during WWII. The books appear to be a mix of historical data, pilot records and modelers reference. I believe volume II starts off with pics of redtail yellow 14 paint scheme.

I zipped the pdf files to make them easier to just download.

[remove links until potential copyright issues are resolved]

There are a good number of series on famous squadrons and pilots.

[Skuzzy]

Do you have permission to post those books?

[gyrene81]

Do you have permission to post those books?

They are out of print foreign published. I checked every channel of international copyright including USC and DMCA codes, in as much as they are being used as historical research material. Didn't find anything but, if you prefer for protection of HTC and it's holdings I will refrain from further activity. Remove the other link as well.

My apologies.

[beau32]

The sources I am reading are saying this is Bf 109F-4/Z Trop, W. Nr. 8693. Though I am curious as this might be W. Nr. 8673


This picture shows the tail. Looking at the white band around the tail, you can see just above it the wing tip, which is white. Hopefully these pictures will help out a little bit.

[Krusty]

Thanks!


P.S. Great photo there, guy leaning against the tail.

[cactuskooler]

Except those are Marseille's W.Nr. 10137 not his W.Nr. 8693 that Krusty's skin is based on.

Edit: Yeah the the tail looks like it says "8673". Either way I don't think they're the Yellow 14 in question.

Note the name of the .jpgs for the first two images.

1-Bf-109F-III.JG27-(Y14+)-Marseille-10137-Africa-June-21-1942-01.jpg
1-Bf-109F-III.JG27-(Y14+)-Marseille-10137-Africa-June-21-1942-02.jpg

[Krusty]

The skin seems correct, it's just the number I got wrong.

P.S. I'm not sure of the timeline, but the references I had when I made the skin suggested 40 kills, I don't know about that rudder with 150-or-so marks on it. Might be from a later time frame than what I as looking at.


EDIT: I'll try to get a wrk no. correct if I can, but I have no qualms with this one very tiny detail being inaccurate. If I can fix it, fine. If I don't know 100% for sure, I'll use my best guess at the time I'm skinning, or whatever seems appropriate for the profiles that best match my intended skin. Just a heads-up. Not a major issue for me as long as I get all the other features of the plane down properly.

[gyrene81]

Krusty, did you manage to get that last batch of files before Skuzzy pulled the link? If no let me know and I can send them via email.


Beau, nice pics but those are not the plane in question. None of them are the yellow 14 with red rudder.

Note the effects of the sun reflecting on the left wing tip in the top photo, you can still clearly see the demarcation between the color white on the tip and the darker color of the wing. Very similar effect on the visible wingtip in the middle picture. Try comparing them to the photos of the red tailed plane in this discussion.

I'm still looking into the yellow chin thing. That little detail is as varied as the overall paint schemes. At first I thought it was a transitional hold over from the late E and early F models when the entire squadron had yellow noses but, after some reading it may have been according to staffel as directed. Seems some 109 pilots had the permission to personalize their aircraft in whatever way they wanted to some extent.

[Krusty]

After some slow researching (I have little free time these days), I have come to the following deficiencies in my skin:

- Missing some stencils that were present on 8693 Feb 1942

- Yellow chin (I've come around after looking at many sources claiming 8693 had the yellow cooler)

- Specific weathering seen on Marseille's plane also Feb 1942 time frame

- Whitewall on tail wheel (not on main wheels)

- Different style balkenkreuze

However, the main area of contention is this:


Rudder and Wingtips. Did 8693 have red rudder, no white tips, and the later versions just the opposite (white tips, sandgelb rudder)?

I'm not totally convinced on the absence of the white tips. I've seen a fair quality picture of the underside and it APPEARs to have a demarcation line... However it also has some weathering spot in this area. Is that spot making an ordinary panel line look dirty and there's really no demarcation?

It's a back and forth I've been having for a while.

While leading up to, during, and after, this time frame various 109Fs in the JG27 Gruppen had white wingtips above and below the wingtips, it doesn't see a constant application. That leaves it up to a plane-by-plane basis.

I've decided I will redo the skin with all of the above deficiencies remedied. I will take the stance (for now) that the red rudder and white wingtips were mutually exclusive.

My options then are, do I remove the red, or do I remove the white? I think this is an easy question. I personally think the red rudder makes the skin stand out. I think it really adds something to the plane. Therefore I will remove the white from the wingtips (as well as correct the wrknr to 8693).

Don't expect it soon. Look how long it took me to do this research! I don't skin nearly as much as I used to when going full time through college. I had much more flexibility in my free time then.