109-F4 Trop Yellow 14 request

[gyrene81]

Krusty, would it be possible to make some adjustments to the color scheme of Yellow 14? I know it's Marseille's Yellow 14 Redtail Feb 1942 color scheme but I think the color is too deep, the white wing tips may not be correct, and there may be some yellow under the nose that is missing.

This link shows what are supposed to be the ace's of JG/27 109-F4 aircraft. Marseille's Yellow 14 Redtail is shown without the white wing tips and a yellow patch under the nose...and the upper surface color (at least on my monitor) is a lighter than the skin currently in AH.

http://www.markstyling.com/bf109fs1.htm

It's a bit of a contradiction to this:



But if you look at the other JG/27 aircraft, the majority of them are the light beige and almost all of them have the yellow patch under the nose. From what I have been able to find, though sketchy, is that I and II JG/27 kept the yellow either the entire nose or just the patch under the nose starting with the 109-E7 through the F and G series they were assigned, and the white wingtips appeared on all of the 109-Fs stationed in N.Africa except for Yellow 14 Redtail 109-F4.

What do you think?

[cactuskooler]

I'm not familiar enough with this plane to help you, but I know that most profiles should be taken with a grain of salt. Your best bet is to find the source that the profiles are made from. That would be actual photos of the plane, such as these..

[TwinBoom]

judging the profile pics with actual id say the first profile is the correct one

[gyrene81]

judging the profile pics with actual id say the first profile is the correct one

Not if you look closely at the right wing tip in the first photo Cactus posted.

[TwinBoom]

i see a faint line

[gyrene81]

i see a faint line

LOL...now you're reaching. Look at the color difference between that right wingtip and the white on the prop hub.

[Krusty]

Gyrene, Mark Styling is not infallible. In fact he has made an exact profile that shows it the way I have it.

If you look here you'll see he at one time thought it had white wingtips and no yellow cowling:

http://img143.imageshack.us/i/bf109f092md.jpg/

Now, to break down the 3 comments, they are:

1) Choice of color "too deep"

2) Wingtips white/not white

3) Yellow chin


Please bear in mind I wanted to skin the early mid-demarcation camo, so that later full-sandgelb profiles are not applicable here. I wanted to skin the more appealing version and this one called to me.

#1) Color choice. Mark Stylings is a profile artist. He is not pulling accurate colors if he's just choosing from a color selection window inside Photoshop. A number of color profile artists get colors wrong sometimes. The fact of the matter is that I've pulled the color sample from paint samples that are blended to replicate the original colors. There are a couple of different places this sandgelb color reference can be pulled from, and some are darker than others, but I went with what I felt best matched model paints I have used in the past, the lighter shades. (I have an opinion that a few pages on the 'Net with color samples have horribly skewed scanners or perhaps their monitors are not set up so they see things differently, the end results are way way off. I believe that explains the overly dark versions of several paints found online). After taking this I even lightened it up myself for various reasons, and then lightened it up more with the multi-layer weathering I placed on top of the paint job. In short I'm not worried about my choice of colors. I went through a lot of references other than Mark Stylings and am relatively comfortable with the end result. Please note similar results in use of this color standared with other LW skinners as well as myself using sandgelb for desert camo:

http://www.netaces.org/skins/109f4/skin6.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/109e4/skin4.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/109e4/skin14.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/109e4/skin13.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/109g2/skin12.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/110c4/skin3.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/110c4/skin4.jpg
http://www.netaces.org/skins/190f8/skin5.jpg

Rogerdee has one 109G2 that I don't think is really accurate, and I have a hunch he has used modern interpretations based on a restored warbird to help choose his colors. It is dark brown and does not really fit the sandgelb color you find most places. I leave that out of the above because he is pretty much the exception to the rule.

#2: Wingtips.

There's a little bit of debate about this. Some references show one thing, some show another. Some artists profile it with, some without.  If you can find a CLEAR picture of the wingtips I'd be willing to change it. I made my decision based on a large sampling of artwork, color profiles, decals for scale models, and various things like that. Looking at actual pictures, they are often grainy or washed out.

In this example:
http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/Bf-109FJG27_3Y14Hans-JoachimMarseileW_Nr8693MartubaLibyaFeb_21194203_jpg.jpg

You can see there is a grit, a pattern of grain under the wing that stops and smooths out right about where the wintips would be white.

In this example:
http://i547.photobucket.com/albums/hh473/cactuskooler/Bf-109FJG27_3Y14Hans-JoachimMarseileW_Nr8693MartubaLibyaFeb_21194201_jpg.jpg

It is washed out a bit but there definitely looks like a demarcation line at the wingtip. It's faint, but there's something.

The debate still stands, but with photos like these it tilts towards the "put white on the tips" side of the discussion. If you find irrefutable proof (heck, even "good proof") to the point of "no white on the wings" please present it and I will change the skin. The only 3 options are: 1) no white, 2) white underneath, 3) white top and bottom. I've chosen the most popular idea based on my sampling as of the time I made the skin, and also based on tentative evidence in the photographs.

#3: Yellow on the chin.

From what I can tell there is no yellow. I'm willing to have my mind changed, but it will take more than an online artist's rendition to change my mind. Of the many types of artwork available online for this particular plane, the majority have no yellow. Photos like this suggest it has no white:

http://airwar.hihome.com/airwar/ww2-europe/part3/side/side-hans-109f4-takeoff.jpg

Note there are 2 demarcation lines on the nose. I believe this would be an indication of a later stage when the lichtblau sides were overpainted with sandgelb, but you could still see a slight coloration difference because when you put a dark color over a light one you often have bleed through or seepage that lightens the new coat. Look at the cowling and where it goes back beyond the yellow end-point. It's the same color. Further it's right at the point the full-demarcation paint scheme would have the sandgelb end. It also looks like the undersides of the wings and further back into the belly are the exact same color as well.

I'm quite comfortable using a "no yellow chin" approach based on the majority of references and based upon this photo.


In short,

#1: Don't trust a single internet artist to be the ultimate truth

#2: Get me some evidence and I will consider it. Debate still rages on. Also, see #1.

#3: All signs point to "no yellow chin" so that's what I've gone with. Get me some evidence and I will reconsider it, but it has to be good because I've already linked an image with a very clear chin shot.

[gyrene81]

Ok Krusty, on the sand color, it could just be my monitor. It looks a bit darker than I would expect on my screen. As you say, some of the profiler depictions aren't as accurate as they could be, and differences in monitor settings can show differences. No biggie.

The white wing tips, looking at the 2nd and 3rd photos of what Cactus posted, you can clearly see the white on the prop hub and fuselage. In top photo the right wingtop clearly lacks the contrast to even be confused with the color white. You can clearly see where all white paint is highly visible whether in the shaded area of the plane or with the sun shining on it. I've seen a couple of photos that were supposed to be 109F-4s from JG/27 that turned out to be G6s, and the wingtips were white, top and bottom. The few good photos I've found of other JG/27 109F4s shows some with white wing tips top and bottom and white only on the bottom. All of them have the white fuselage squadron band.

The yellow chin is a bit harder but, as of the 109E-7 the squadron used either a full yellow nose or just the yellow chin, with few exceptions. Just looking at the photos, Marseilles yellow 14 redtail did indeed lack the the yellow chin. So no argument there.

[Krusty]

Have you a specific color in mind? A photo reference, or something?

Also, have you checked to make sure something on your monitor isn't way off?

http://epaperpress.com/monitorcal/

Check that out. I know monitor calibration is subjective, but if you're really way way off it'll be obvious. Mine is fairly well calibrated at least going by that link.

Here's one easy-to-view link showing what the paint colors should look like using the federal standards paint system:

http://www.colorserver.net/showcolor.asp?fs=30219,35352

[gyrene81]

Ok going by that monitor calibration link, it shows my 22 and my 17 inch monitors spot on. Like I said, the sand color is probably just a misconception on my part of the contrast in black and white photos and unreliable color profiles. So let's not worry about the upper surface color, unless you feel like making it less shiny from a distance.

Do you think I'm off on the wingtips?

[Krusty]

EDIT: Stupid forums acting up. Here's the longer response I retyped after it ate my first post (then actually posted it while I thought it was lost):

I think the debate rages on about the wingtips but that for me it is tilted slightly towards the "put white on" side of things.

You mention this, also a pic I've seen before:



You note that the tips aren't white as compared to the prop and tail band. I have taken this into account, however I have looked at it with a critical eye. There is some discoloration on that wingtip. It appears to be a line right where these white wingtips begin. There definitely looks like a line. The interesting thing is it looks a tad darker. Now, there could be a number of explanations, but one possible explanation is they put fresh paint on this to cover up the white wingtip that was there. Meaning there WAS a white wingtip at one point before this.


I've mentioned the underside wingtip here:



The shadows and grain seem to suggest a sheen difference, or a subtle shift in color. On the other hand critical viewing of this picture could possibly be attributed to the shape of the wing curving up slightly more as it nears the wingtip, changing the way it reflects light and casts shadow.


The end result is that I'm going with white wingtips for now, until convinced otherwise. Things that might convince me include photos that show better angles than the above picture, journal or pilot quote saying "he had no white on his wings" -- from original source I mean, not just Mark Stylings or an internet artist. Published works would hold more sway for me than some guy's opinion online.

[gyrene81]

Krusty, if after looking at those photos if you have yourself convinced that the wingtips are white nothing is going to change your mind. I've looked at them from 2 different systems with 2 different monitors and I see no indication of lighter or darker coloration. Looking at the shadows, in the photo showing the left side of the plane it appears to be between 1130 and 1300 as the shadows are not very elongated but almost directly under the aircraft and the truck on the left. That means the top of the fuselage band and the prop hub, both painted white are directly exposed to the sun as is the right wing tip. If the right wingtip were white the contrast would show as brightly as the other white painted areas directly exposed to the sun. Funny thing about black and white photos, they tend to show contrasts very distinctly in bright light conditions.

In the photo with the guy cleaning the gun barrel, look at the very bottom of the prop hub and cowling that are painted bright white. Looking at the shadows again, that photo was taken during an overcast day near noon. The bottom of the prop hub and cowling as well as the very bottom of the fuselage band are shaded against the sun just as the left wing tip is. Reflection of what sunlight there is off the sand would show the contrast on any lighter coloration, especially considering as you pointed out yourself that the wingtip is more exposed to light than the rest of the wing due to curvature of the surface. Also note that if the wingtip was painted white top and bottom the paint would wrap around the outer tip closest to the photographer as well as leading edge of the wingtip, and it would show clearly in that photo.

Examining those photos with from an objective standpoint should be enough evidence that the wingtips are not white, considering they appear to be enough evidence to the contrary. Again, if you believe that it's correct in spite of the photographic evidence you provide, nothing short of full color film or the plane itself is going to convince you.

[Krusty]

Gyrene, I've got a lot of experience comparing a large number of references and deciding what features a skin will have.

You don't have to agree with my choices, and sometimes I have been wrong (10/JG2 109F skin, for example, which I have since redone with different colors). However, that is not to say that I take any of the research part of it lightly.

In my experience even black and white film can be tricky. Even on areas that SHOULD be high contrast. The P-47D with the white added-on dorsal fillet, for example. That was a bit of a debate when somebody wanted to skin it.


You seem to be suggesting (resentfully) that I've made up my mind and won't change it. I have said probably 3x now in this thread alone that I have chosen the best choice for now based off the majority of many many many resources that suggest Marseille had white wingtips. It seems to me you've got the idea in your mind that they had no white, and won't see otherwise (eh? How's that for a counter-point?).

Like I said (3x) if you can bring more to the debate about those white wingtips, some references be they book excerpts, photos, pilot diary entries, whatever... I'll welcome them openly. Based on many resources available right now, I'm going with white but have never expressed that I feel this is 100% correct.

[gyrene81]

You seem to be suggesting (resentfully) that I've made up my mind and won't change it. I have said probably 3x now in this thread alone that I have chosen the best choice for now based off the majority of many many many resources that suggest Marseille had white wingtips. It seems to me you've got the idea in your mind that they had no white, and won't see otherwise (eh? How's that for a counter-point?).

Like I said (3x) if you can bring more to the debate about those white wingtips, some references be they book excerpts, photos, pilot diary entries, whatever... I'll welcome them openly. Based on many resources available right now, I'm going with white but have never expressed that I feel this is 100% correct.

Geez, Krusty...first, I said that particular plane did not have white wingtips. And it is obvious just by the photos you and Cactus provided. I've spent a lot of time looking at black and white photos, from memorabilia to military reconnaisance photos to photography classes. Unless they are blurred, washed out or damaged in some way, the colors black and white are very stark where other colors are shades of gray.

If we were talking about the wingtip on the 109 in this photo from the German Federal Archive, it would be a different story as clearly the entire wing is painted a light color and glare from the sun has washed out any contrast.



But that is not the case with the photos in question. From my point of view, anyone who has spent any amount of time scrutinizing black and white photos should be able to clearly discern white from any other color except in cases like the above photo or when the photo is damaged, so your responses thus far regarding the photos in this thread leads me to believe you are seeing what you want to see. And that is fine, no argument.


Marseille as well as the rest of JG27 I, II and III did indeed use white wingtips on their planes through various periods during their duty in N. Africa. They also painted the cowlings yellow at various times. Some of the gruppe and staffel commanders painted just the chin part of the cowling yellow at times as well as other variances they wanted on their aircraft. All of this I'm very sure you know inside and out. Here is the one reference I have at the moment that shows a deviation from the white wing tips. Page 73, 1 JG/27 White 2 109F-4 1941, and it is very clear the wingtips are not white. The cowling appears to be a lighter color than the rest of the aircraft, could be yellow or could be just a lighter shade of the fuselage color.
Kagero_ML-05_-_JG-27_v.2.

I'm still looking for others.

[gyrene81]

        

oops