Author Topic: Merlin engine in Ace's  (Read 18762 times)

Offline BulletVI

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Merlin engine in Ace's
« on: August 16, 2010, 10:30:37 AM »

Now for a while in the game i have always thought that the merlin engine hasn't reached its potential. And i believed that it was due to its RPM out put in the game.
I mean i never thought that at full wep the engine only achieved 2750 rpm's so i have for a couple of months now been trying to see if i am wrong or correct.
Now im sorry but allot of my info i have found is from wikipeadia and we know that their info is either vague or not updated fast enough. But the spec's they give make for some interesting reading on the subject.
Here's a couple of links to what i have found :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Merlin

http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/the-development-of-rolls-royce-merlin-engine.html

Now as you can see it says for the very first Merlin engine it produced 1030bhp at 3000 rpm at a given height.
Now in the game i dont see the merlin in the Spit or mustang ,Lancaster or the Mossi able to go to 3000rpm even on full wep :)

Now i ask if anyone can help with further research you are welcome to help it shall be greatly appreciated.

Now i dont expect that if we are proved right that it has to be sorted right away. But if we are right can we have it sorted by the next update :)
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Offline Lepape2

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 10:45:25 AM »
Can't go at higher RPM because of the propeller is so large that its tips are not designed to have a tangential velocity greater than the speed of sound or some other aerodynamic constraint. The smaller the prop, the faster is can rotate. Why do you think very small turbine engines spin at 80,000rpm and large jumbo airliners have them spin at around 12500RPM (3,000RPM for main fan)? And remember, the propeller RPM is not the same as engine RPM because there is a gear box between the prop and engine. Although modern propellers can be designed to rotate faster and quieter, they still have a limit not dependent on the engine max RPM.

But this is just one of many other reasons I'm sure others will pull out.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 11:07:56 AM by Lepape2 »
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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 10:52:20 AM »
That is true Lepape2 but if the merlin engine is capable of 3000 rpm and in game we only get say around 2750 rpm with full wep on surely we all can do more research on this as what i have posted probably wont change or spur hitech in to action. If more and in depth research is done then maybe just maybe we can get it right.

As hitech has said he strive's to make Ace's the most realistic Combat Sim to date. And we as Paying customer's should help him to achieve that no matter what :)
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Offline Lepape2

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 10:58:13 AM »
[...]
As hitech has said he strive's to make Ace's the most realistic Combat Sim to date. And we as Paying customer's should help him to achieve that no matter what :)

How many times has this sentence been refuted countless times because some guy thinks the makers have a simulator that does not reflex reality while they have been on it for 2 decades or more? At this point in the game development, you have to trust its features because so much has already been discussed that its unlikely that you can find something wrong by just looking at wikipedia charts...

Wikipedia is only worthy for knowledge with mathematical data and not statistical or historical data, although the numbers are right most of the time.

Make sure you are comparing the correct aircraft type/model as well with the game.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 11:10:42 AM by Lepape2 »
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Offline Changeup

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 11:08:56 AM »
Bullet:

Very interesting.  According to Jane's....the Spit IX's engine was more HP but the Spit VIII and Spit XVI had the same engines but were manufactured by different companies.  From this chart it would appear to me that in-game Seafire is grossly underpowered vs. the HP it claims to have had.  Understanding the power to weight ratio because it was a carrier launched and landed a/c it's obviously going to be heavier.


Main article: List of Rolls-Royce Merlin variants
This is a summary list of representative Merlin variants. Engines of the same power output were typically assigned different model numbers based on supercharger or propeller gear ratios, differences in cooling system or carburettors, engine block construction, or arrangement of engine controls.[67] All but the Merlin 131 and 134 engines were "right-hand tractor", i.e. the propeller rotated to the right when viewed from the rear.

Data from Bridgman (Jane's)[68] unless otherwise noted:

Merlin II or III
1,030 hp (775 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 5,500 ft (1,680 m) using + 6 psi boost (41 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 144 kPa or 1.41 atm); Merlin III fitted with "universal" propeller shaft able to mount either de Havilland or Rotol propellers,[69]
1,310 hp (977 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 9,000 ft (2,700 m) with 100 octane fuel and +12 psi boost (83 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 184 kPa or 1.82 atm) (Merlin III);[43] both used in the Boulton Paul Defiant, Hurricane Mk.I, Spitfire Mk.I fighters, and Fairey Battle light bomber.[70]
Merlin X
1,130 hp (840 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 5,250 ft (1,525 m); used in Halifax Mk.I, Wellington Mk.II, and Whitley Mk.V bombers.
 
Preserved Merlin XX at the Royal Air Force MuseumMerlin XII
1,150 hp (860 kW); fitted with Coffman engine starter; first version to use 70/30% water/glycol coolant rather than 100% glycol. Fitted to Spitfire Mk. II.[69]
Merlin XX
1,480 hp (1,105 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 6,000 ft (1,830 m); used in Beaufighter Mk.II and Hurricane Mk.II fighters, Halifax Mk.II and Lancaster Mk.I bombers.
Merlin 32
1,645 hp (1,230 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 2,500 ft (760 m); used mainly in Fleet Air Arm aircraft; used in Barracuda Mk.II torpedo bomber and Seafire IIc. Also Hawker Hurricane Mk V and Spitfire P.R Mk XIII.[69] and
Merlin 45
1,515 hp (1,130 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 11,000 ft (3,353 m); used in Spitfire Mk.V, PR.Mk.IV and PR.Mk.VII, Seafire Ib and IIc.
Merlin 47
1,415 hp (1,055 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 14,000 ft (4,270 m); high-altitude version used in Spitfire H.F Mk VI. Adapted with a Marshall compressor (often called a "blower") to pressurise the cockpit.
Merlin 50.M
1,585 hp (1,182 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 3,800 ft (1,160 m); low-altitude version with supercharger impeller "cropped" to 9.5 inches (240 mm) in diameter. Permitted boost was +18 psi (125 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 225 kPa or 2.2 atm) instead of +16 psi (110 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 210 kPa or 2.08 atm) on a normal Merlin 50 engine. A "negative-g" carburettor was fitted.[71][72]
Merlin 61
1,565 hp (1,170 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 12,250 ft (3,740 m)
1,390 hp (1,035 kW) at 3,000 rpm at 23,500 ft (7,170 m); fitted with a new two-speed two-stage supercharger providing increased power at medium to high altitudes; used in Spitfire F. Mk IX, and P.R.Mk XI.[73] First British production variant to incorporate two-piece cylinder blocks designed by Rolls-Royce for Packard Merlin.[74]
Merlin 66
1,720 hp (1,283 kW) at 5,750 ft (1,752 m) using +18 psi boost (124 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 225 kPa or 1.2 atm); low-altitude version of Merlin 61. Fitted with a Bendix-Stromberg anti-g carburettor;[75] used in Spitfire L.F Mk VIII and L.F Mk IX.[71]
Merlin 76/77
1,233 hp (920 kW); used in the Westland Welkin high-altitude fighter and some later Spitfire and Mosquito variants. Fitted with a two-speed, two-stage supercharger and a Bendix-Stromberg carburettor. The odd-numbered mark drove a blower for pressurising the cockpit.
Merlin 130/131
2,060 hp (1,536 kW); redesigned "slimline" versions for the de Havilland Hornet. Engine modified to decrease frontal area to a minimum and was the first Merlin series to use down-draught induction systems. Coolant pump moved from the bottom of the engine to the starboard side. Two-speed, two-stage supercharger and S.U. injection carburettor. Maximum boost was 25 psi (170 kPa gauge; or an absolute pressure of 270 kPa or 2.7 atm). The Merlin 131 had an additional idler gear in the reduction gear casing allowing "reverse" (left-hand tractor) rotation. The Merlin 130 was fitted in the starboard nacelle, Merlin 131 in the port nacelle on production Hornets.[76]
Merlin 133/134
2,030 hp (1,514 kW); derated variants of 130/131 used in Sea Hornet F. Mk. 20, N.F. Mk. 21 and P.R. Mk. 22. Maximum boost was lowered to +18 psi gauge (230 kPa or 2.2 atm absolute).
Merlin 266
The prefix "2" indicates engines built by Packard, otherwise as Merlin 66, optimised for low-altitude operation. Fitted to the Spitfire Mk. XVI.[71]
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Offline Changeup

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 11:17:04 AM »
How many times has this sentence been refuted countless times because some guy thinks the makers have a simulator that does not reflex reality while they have been on it for 2 decades or more? At this point in the game development, you have to trust its features because so much has already been discussed that its unlikely that you can find something wrong by just looking at wikipedia charts...

Wikipedia is only worthy for knowledge with mathematical data and not statistical or historical data, although the numbers are right most of the time.

Make sure you are comparing the correct aircraft type/model as well with the game.

Agreed.  The performance data may appear in Wikipedia articles but the source data can be verified easily from trusted sources...such as Jane's.  I trust Jane's because Lloyd's of London trusts Jane's and Lloyd's is the biggest BOOKIE in the history of modern society.  That being said, I am unsure of what you mean by statistical and historical data...isn't the sim modeled from mathematical data?  I would think statistical and historical data are irrelevent for sim purposes...the a/c's performance envelope is developed based on its mathematical performance specs (knowing full well that those are numbers that are technically historical right?) and then the pilots fly them as best they can.

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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 11:47:54 AM »


As in my first post i said that this is early finding's i am constantly searching for more data from various source's hell even if i have to call in a few favours to get the info i shall do it. As i also said at present the in game programing for the merlin engine wont be changed on this alone but some data doesnt addup. like

The Merling puts out 3000 rpm maximum and in game with full wep on we dont reach that. That is my point. Now i hear you say whats a few hundred rpm's. But in combat that make's a difference between out diving a 109 to catching it in a dive.

Now if proven that say the merlin puts out 2750 rpm at full power and with wep it then puts out 3000 rpm then hey good. Or even if hitech come's in and says oops sorry minor default in the animation of the rpm gauge it should show 3000rpm then cool topic over with. :)
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Offline Ghastly

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 12:11:24 PM »
Oh for Pete's sake.  

Even the wikipedia source link - as cruddy a source as wikipedia is - mentions the aircrew reduction gearing, although it doesn't give any details as to what the gearing would have been in the various implementations.  

Crankcase
    Two aluminium-alloy castings joined together on the horizontal centreline. The upper portion bears the wheelcase, supercharger and accessories; and carries the cylinder blocks, crankshaft main bearings (split mild-steel shells lined with lead bronze alloy), and part of the housing for the airscrew reduction gear. The lower half forms an oil sump and carries the oil pumps and filters.


Why do you think they refer to it as a reduction gear?  

The RPM's that you are monitoring in the game are for the propeller - which depending upon specific aircraft design may or may not vary from the engine RPM's considerably, depending upon at what RPM's the engine used developed peak power and which design trade-offs were deemed most important with respect to the propeller.



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Offline FLS

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 12:17:47 PM »
WEP increases power not RPM. We have 3000 RPM in AH.

Offline gyrene81

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 12:30:05 PM »



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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 12:43:44 PM »
You sure according to sources the rpm gauge shows engine rpm from the flywheel of the engine not propelar rpm as engine rpm is easyer to measure. and accurate. Wep does increase power but upon increase of power you receive an increase of rpm's :)


Please if you only just want to needle the topic please stay out of it thankyou :)


Please read

http://www.k5083.mistral.co.uk/TECHDATA.HTM

http://www.luftfahrtmuseum.com/htmi/itf/rrmr724.htm

( Heck even if the engine can only last for a certain time at full rpm then fine let us do the damage to it   :)   )
« Last Edit: August 16, 2010, 12:57:14 PM by BulletVI »
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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 01:02:15 PM »
This is a doc with sources and original 1938 - 1945 documents.  I don't know that it matters but its damn cool.  BTW, I have flown the Spit I and I can't remember it performing like this in-game that is for sure.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html
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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 01:24:12 PM »
This is a doc with sources and original 1938 - 1945 documents.  I don't know that it matters but its damn cool.  BTW, I have flown the Spit I and I can't remember it performing like this in-game that is for sure.

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

That was a nice and interesting read changeup  :salute :) :aok
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Offline SEseph

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 01:31:54 PM »
This might help (Have Java turned off so don't know if there actually IS a calculator, but the text does seem accurate when put into forumlas

Is a prop speed/length to RPM calculator.

http://www.pponk.com/HTML%20PAGES/propcalc.html
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Offline BulletVI

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Re: Merlin engine in Ace's
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 01:36:16 PM »
This might help (Have Java turned off so don't know if there actually IS a calculator, but the text does seem accurate when put into forumlas

Is a prop speed/length to RPM calculator.

http://www.pponk.com/HTML%20PAGES/propcalc.html

there is a calculator there thanks i shall give it a go :)
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