Author Topic: A case for the P-63  (Read 1121 times)

Offline Vinkman

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A case for the P-63
« on: August 16, 2010, 06:46:11 PM »
A case for the P-63 in Aces High

Note: please do not hijack this thread with discussions of your pet or 'more worthy' aircraft. Those should be discussed in seperate threads. Thank you:salute

     While the single seat, single engine, liquid cooled V-12s were the premier fighters for Great Britain, Germany, and Italy, The U.S. Struggled to compete with its V-12 powered offerings at the outset of the war in Europe. The biggest factor in that struggle was the Allison 1710, the only V-12 available to American Manufacturers, which in 1941 was under developed, and underpowered. North American Aviation made the decision to abandon Allison for the British developed Merlin, hence the most successful V-12 powered American Fighter of the war, the Mustang, can't be considered all American from a design and engineering stand point. The Bell P-63 Kingcobra was the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter.   
     The second generation of Bell's mid-engine single seat fighter concept, the Kingcobra, possessed impressive performance numbers:
Climb Rate [ref 1]

0 ft                 5000 ft          10,000ft     15,000 ft      20,000 ft      25,000 ft     30,000 ft
3.67k ft/min   3.73k ft/min   3.7k ft/min   3.55k ft/min   3.27k ft/min   2.6k ft/min   1.96k ft/min
   
 Top Speed * [ref 2]
                                    P-63A-1      P-47D-20        P-38J-15          P-51B-5
War Emergency Power   60"/3000 rpm   56"/2700 rpm   60"/3000 rpm   67"/3000 rpm
Speed @ 10,000 ft           372                   367                 383               395
Speed @ 20,000 ft           397                   401                 414               411
Speed @ 25,000 ft           397                   414                 420               424
Speed @ 30,000 ft           389                   423                 417               433
*note: This data was for these planes tested during the same flight test. As such its relative values are accurate, but actual values may differ from other flight test results. The P-63A with WEP rating of 1325 HP. The C' model P-63 could run with 80" of manifold pressure, producing 1800 HP. No top speed test data for C' model found to date. [ref 3]

Roll Rate  & Turn performance.
     I'm still searching for a source of the objective numbers, which are not quoted in Matthews book, but this quote from the NACA test results [ref 4]: "the maximum rate of roll possible with full aileron deflection is exceeded by few current planes for which comparable data are available.", indicated the roll rate was excellent. Similarly, but much less objectively, these excerpts give an indication of turn performance. "With respect to maneuverability, the Kingcobra received high marks from the Air Force. The Kingcobra also consistently turned tighter circles than the other three fighters [P-51B-5, P-38J-15, P-47D-20]. In dives tests the Kingcobra had a slight advantage over the P-38. In full power dives the P-47 and the P-51 showed a marked advantage over the P-63. When subjected to zoom tests at full power, the Kingcobra was better than the P-47 and the P-38. [ref 5]
 
     Good climb rate, excellent roll rate, good turn performance, good top speed, so why was the Kingcobra pass up by the U.S. Army?
In Europe the fighter mission had become a very specialized version of the air superiority role, consisting of very long range fighter sweeps. The qualities preferred were a large combat radius, and top speed, and a gun package ideal for killing fast maneuverable fighter aircraft. The P-63 is a poor match to the Mustang in combat radius, and its gun package has only two or four .50 caliber machine guns for the anti-fighter roll. The 37mm with 58 rounds, was a less than ideal weapon against evasive, agile fighters. The Mustang was better suited to the specific mission the Army was most interested in, in late 1943. Coupled with the need to provide planes to the Russians, and the Russians familiarity with Bell aircraft and the mid-engine layout of the Bell fighters, the decision to send the P-63 to the Russians, was a practical, and logical one, more than it was proof of a lack capability on the part of the P-63. On paper the P-63 seems to have a different attribute mix than the Mustang. When assessed versus the full variety of missions that play out in the MA, the P-63 would be better than the Mustang in the anti-bomber roll, ground attack, and it's better maneuverability but less than ideal gun package would make for a fun dog fighter, similar to the 109-K4
AP ammo might make it a good tank buster, but the game would employ Russian designation P-63s and they were not issues AP rounds [ref 6]
One of the great parts about Aces High is the ability to assess all the planes against each other in a variety of roles. Some of those roles will be outside of  how  they earned their reputations during the war. Messerschmitts dog fighting Zeros, Spitfires vs Corsairs. P-51s attacking large bomber formations instead of defending them.  In such matchups the Aces High players get a unique opportunity to judge whether the reputations of these planes outpaces their actual ability, or perhaps in the case of the P-63, whether the reputation as a sub-par aircraft is a complete misunderstanding of the facts surrounding its deployment to the eastern front.   

     The case for the P-63 in Aces High II is more than just having a unique new fighter to play with. The P-63 has significance in it's place in history as the platform that carried the only two stage supercharged Allison V-12 which finally produced more power at all altitudes than the Merlin, while the airframe seems to have finally delivered on the promise of mid-engine maneuverability, and big cannon firepower. To see for ourselves if the last and best attempt by American engineers to develop a single seat, single engine, V-12 powered fighter was just another weapons system footnote as many are lead to believe, or an under appreciated hidden jewel in the arsenal of democracy. Aces High would be the perfect laboratory to prove what Allison and Bell were truly capable of, after they were given sufficient time and resources to develop their concepts to their full potential after getting a late start due to America's slow commitment in the 1930 to prepare for war. 

[ref1. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref2. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 188]
[ref3. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 395]
[ref4. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 200]
[ref5. Cobra! Bell Aircraft Corporation 1934-1946, Birch Matthews, p. 194]
[ref6. Attack of the Airacobras, Dimity Loza p. needed]

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Offline Imowface

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2010, 07:39:02 PM »
I wouldn't fly it, but it would be great to have in the game, and you made a very good case for it here, I always enjoy when people actually put lots of thought into a wish and don't just think to them self's hey, lets ask HTC for a b29 again.

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Offline Liberator

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2010, 07:51:32 PM »
+1 :aok

Offline oakranger

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2010, 08:46:08 PM »
+1
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Offline bj229r

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2010, 08:52:52 PM »
I see lotsa stuff about what it COULD do, but not what it DID
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2010, 08:55:01 PM »
A worthy cause...

but I vote "no".  HTC's time would be better put to use adding far more *worthy* and *notable* aircraft that are obviously missing from their aircraft line up.  ;)

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 09:01:39 PM »
I see lotsa stuff about what it COULD do, but not what it DID

Did pretty good in Soviet service and it should be added to the game as well.  Even though it's a US built plane, it would still give the Soviets a plane to help fill out the plane set.


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Offline Plazus

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 09:07:57 PM »
This is a reasonable wish IMO...

1. It saw combat
2. It was in squadron strength
3. Would fill in some of the Russian plane set, as AKAK stated
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 10:14:29 PM »
I like the 63.   First real warbird I ever saw fly.  That being said, it would still be down the list with other more historically active birds being added first.

Hop in the 39Q and have fun with it :)
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Offline Karnak

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 10:33:59 PM »
<yawn>

Yet another request from somebody who can't see past their nationalism.
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Offline Guppy35

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 11:29:42 PM »
<yawn>

Yet another request from somebody who can't see past their nationalism.

That's a bit strong I think Karnak.  Gotta believe folks can have a strong interest for a bird and it doesn't make it nationalism.  Kinda like folks who like Mossies, or Spit XIIs, or Beaufighters for that matter :)

That 63 has been in his Avatar a long time.  It is a pretty bird.
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Offline Pigslilspaz

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 11:40:38 PM »
+1
love this bird, it has always been my favorite vehicle of the war.

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Offline Tupac

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 11:42:15 PM »
<yawn>

Yet another request from somebody who can't see past their nationalism.

Better to have nationalism than to complain about people that do.
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Offline milesobrian

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2010, 12:12:22 AM »
I wouldn't fly it, but it would be great to have in the game, and you made a very good case for it here, I always enjoy when people actually put lots of thought into a wish and don't just think to them self's hey, lets ask HTC for a b29 again.

 :aok

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Offline Karnak

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Re: A case for the P-63
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2010, 12:20:44 AM »
Better to have nationalism than to complain about people that do.
Nationalism is evil.  Patriotism is good, but Nationalism should be opposed always.

As far as the P-63, it has practically no place in a WWII sim.  The aircraft was a complete non-factor.  Asking for it to be added when the US planeset is well rounded and many key aircraft that played major roles in WWII are still absent is absurd.
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