Author Topic: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...  (Read 1955 times)

Offline Stoney

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2010, 06:26:49 AM »
Stoney to your original statement and my observation:

  I agree that "we" should be seeing larger bomber formations in general.  My opinion when the point value of a single bomber (20) nearly match's the point value of a target Hanger (25) and the targets at the fields are limited to just the hangers a good CIC probably will limit the exposure of the bombers to his min numbers.  It doesn't make sense to risk 400 points worth of bombers to get 100 points in hangers.  Even if the bombers have a better chance of making it.  Lose 5 bombers and your gain is all lost.  To many things can go wrong from escorts not escorting or bomber groups going back and forth 3 or 4 times over the same target allowing every enemy plane within 75 miles to converge on them.

  If I were CIC'ing during this scenario I would only use my min numbers in bombers because of the point value of the possible gain to the possible loss.  The city targets are the exception and bombers almost have to be used to take them out.

  Reduce the point values of the bombers or increase the point values of the targets or reduce the numbers of targets and you will probably see more bombers used.  City type targets almost require the use of bombers, so use more city type targets.  I'm not sure of what ratio to recommend is, but probably a 1.5 - 2.0 ratio of target points to bomber loss's based on 7 pilots (21) bombers crossing a target would be about right to encourage more bomber usage.

  Another observation:  The amount of total targets.  You really cant assign bombers to each target or you would have more bombers in the air than escorts when the FSO rules on splitting squad plane types are figured into the ratio's.  You really cant use a lot of bombers in a plan when there are 7 targets to hit.  Also you have the requirements on planes types that must be used for a frame (7 of 9 for the ALLIES).  All driving the CIC to use less bombers.  Don't know if this was by design or not, but its the way its working out for this scenario.

@PFactor...let's keep the comments above board.  No one person is trying to ruin your FSO.

@Krusty...new map with some very specific spawn architecture.  I'm sure the launch structure will be modified to better accommodate that.  I'm sure DD will tweak something to eliminate the "air spawn camping".

@Viper...good comments.  Agreed with the scoring.  As far as number of targets goes...At a roughly 400 member player base, and a 50/50 split (for easy math), that means you have 200 allied players.  Using your planning figure of roughly 7 player pilots per each of 7 targets, that means you'd have roughly 50 bomber pilots and 150 escorts, with roughly 20 escorts per target.  I'd say that'd be a reasonable mix.  The only problem is figuring out what "7th plane" to use, since you use the B-17, B-24, P-51B, P-51D, P-47, and P-38.  I don't know if either of the Spits have the legs for anything long range.
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2010, 07:25:38 AM »

On more than one occasion my squad has floundered in 190s or 109s at 30k, maybe 32k at most, and watched as entire squadrons of BOMB LADEN P-47s flew above us completely unmolested, dropped on the target, and got away in a 600mph dive.


I totally agree with you, but for the totally opposite reasons.

In FSO folks have done this hundreds of times and know just how to game the game, just how to get a job done without any risk, unlike the boys in WW2 that did this for real. Historically bomb-laden P-47s may have flown into the target at 10k. Here in AH they never drop below 35k if they can help it.  

Great points.

also. Just because a plane (pick one) Might have had a service ceiling of 30K +.  Does NOT mean that they usually flew at that altitude. Regardless of what type of mission they were on.. In fact most of the time they didnt operate that high. This business of aircraft, particularly bomb laden ones as exampled above. Is so grossly historically  inaccurate. Its well within the realm of absurdity.
Which is why I have an objection to allowing operating ceilings over 25K.

And to add to that. With a limited visual range. Only does more to add to non combat as a group can being flying well above or below you and never even be seen.
Where as 10 groups of B17s for example (30 planes in total) would definitely be noticed from lower altitudes IRL.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 07:28:50 AM by DREDIOCK »
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Offline 49Jester

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2010, 07:55:45 AM »
Just Curious why those 262's were  chasing us down to our runway at A24, I thought the axis had a sector line (6) that they couldnt cross. Perhaps the orders werent clear enough.

But overall we enjoyed the frame, it was nice to be in a good frame in a nice machine.

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Offline thorsim

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2010, 09:13:51 AM »
not moving to the spawns and the no combat past the 6 line were both explicit in the orders and on the text buffer last night ...

however spawn points were fair game after t+10 and i let the hounds loose on you after that ...

combat was a go to the 6 line and i did order the squads to close the door on stragglers east of 24 specifically the 262s ...

i want you guys having nightmares about the hoover but the limits were clearly expressed to the squads.

if they were exceeded i apologize, if you are exaggerating and in the process implying cheating,
well i hope that is not the case either, and that it is all a misunderstanding.

 ~II/JG-27~ AFRIKA had a good night as well ...

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Offline CHAPPY

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2010, 09:28:34 AM »
I dont know where the 6 line was but JG2 was landing at 24 and couple of the 262 where in icon range from the field.

Offline kilo2

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2010, 09:33:04 AM »
its close to the line. I am sure we didnt go over.
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Offline Nefarious

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #21 on: September 04, 2010, 09:49:16 AM »
For the record, my squad had exactly the same mission as you and a complete plane of action.  We knew who was to escort your squad & our squad to the target.  We knew where they were because we read the orders.  we knew that they were starting 4 sectors behind us & planned accordingly.  We also made & stayed in contact with the assigned escort, not that it helped your squads or my squads plight.

I should of read the orders more carefully, because had the 412th spotted the issue we would have spawned with the 47s at A61.

Sorry for the confusion. We were just following the orders.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Krusty

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #22 on: September 04, 2010, 04:11:23 PM »
not moving to the spawns and the no combat past the 6 line were both explicit in the orders and on the text buffer last night ...

however spawn points were fair game after t+10 and i let the hounds loose on you after that ...

Only.... We weren't allowed to spawn until T+10... And they new exactly where we would be (en masse) and that we would still be forming up and disorganized and that hundreds of allied planes would all be lumped in a handful of key sector clusters.

Overall, it might be better to not use the air spawns, to change some of those middle fields to allied, and to have the allies take off and climb out closer to the target (because the allied fields as they were in frame 1 would have had no chance to hit targets by T+60 even if they ran level instead of climbing out).

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #23 on: September 04, 2010, 04:40:01 PM »
I dont know where the 6 line was but JG2 was landing at 24 and couple of the 262 where in icon range from the field.

Dont know if they crossed the line. but I do know that they were close enough to get the base at 24 flashing numerous times. But from my observation. None got close enough to the base when I was landing there to be a threat to my landing.

All depends on where the dar ring is if they "crossed the line"
Based on what I saw. If they did it was probably inadvertent.
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #24 on: September 04, 2010, 05:09:00 PM »
krusty what you describe is not spawn camping.  it may need review but per the orders heading into the spawn areas at t+10 was cricket.  feel free to bring up the issue with the designers but Luftwaffe was ordered not to bend or push the rules on the points you brought up, and as far as i can tell nobody did, at least not on purpose or with any consequences.
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Offline daddog

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2010, 06:38:39 PM »
Just a quick FYI.
Quote
@Krusty...new map with some very specific spawn architecture.  I'm sure the launch structure will be modified to better accommodate that.  I'm sure DD will tweak something to eliminate the "air spawn camping".
Working on a couple ideas, not sure which one will work best. :) Objectives for Frame 2 will go out tonight.
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Offline Bannor

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2010, 08:14:55 PM »
I would keep the air spawn location a secret. :salute
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Offline Dantoo

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2010, 12:17:32 AM »
Quote
I don't know if either of the Spits have the legs for anything long range.

For clarity to assist the CIC planning this week:

Spit 16 carrying slipper tank has 42 minutes endurance at the spawn.  Having them escort heavies on a raid that takes 40 minutes to get to target, tests the skill set, when a fight and perhaps rtb is factored in.
I get really really tired of selective realism disguised as a desire to make bombers easier to kill.

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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2010, 11:06:53 PM »
For clarity to assist the CIC planning this week:

Spit 16 carrying slipper tank has 42 minutes endurance at the spawn.  Having them escort heavies on a raid that takes 40 minutes to get to target, tests the skill set, when a fight and perhaps rtb is factored in.

Would spits and temps have had the legs to do this mission without an airspawn close to the enemy? I doubt it.

Offline Stoney

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Re: Jabos in an 8th AF setup...
« Reply #29 on: September 10, 2010, 11:10:30 PM »
Oh, and just another observation, if everyone in the mission is assigned to carry ordnance, there is no escort, even if you call them "escorts" in the orders...
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