UPS 747 crash in Dubai

[oakranger]

Sorry for your loss. Here some news on the possible cause of the accident:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/10/09/0023211/FAA-Reports-Heat-In-Cargo-Holds-Can-Ignite-Laptop-Batteries

 "lithium batteries are sensitive to heat and can ignite in-flight if transported in cargo compartments that get too hot"

Lithium:
Melting point     453.69 K, 180.54 °C, 356.97 °F
Boiling point     1615 K, 1342 °C, 2448 °F
Critical point     (extrapolated) 3223 K, 67 MPa
Heat of fusion     3.00 kJ·mol−1
Heat of vaporization     147.1 kJ·mol−1
Specific heat capacity     (25 °C) 24.860 J·mol−1·K−1

 , are they flying to close the the sun for the cargo to get that hot?

[Wolfala]

Sorry for your loss. Here some news on the possible cause of the accident:

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/10/10/09/0023211/FAA-Reports-Heat-In-Cargo-Holds-Can-Ignite-Laptop-Batteries

Maybe the TSA will back off on the bull shi searches. Wishful thinking.

 

[CAP1]

the fact is, that none of this is necessary. it isn't doing anything except pissing off people.

if they TRULY wanted to prevent this kind of thing......then handle any possible attempted hijacking as the isrealies did back in.....1977? 1979?

then they can install the same blast proof doors and bulkheads, and blast proof cargo containers. but...then that'd be too easy, and sensible.

[RoGenT]

  to the friends and family.

[Penguin]

the fact is, that none of this is necessary. it isn't doing anything except pissing off people.

if they TRULY wanted to prevent this kind of thing......then handle any possible attempted hijacking as the isrealies did back in.....1977? 1979?

then they can install the same blast proof doors and bulkheads, and blast proof cargo containers. but...then that'd be too easy, and sensible.

And heavy, do you realize what those kinds of reinforcements weigh?  In addition to that, you'd have to have them made, and put up with the worse gas mileage that you get from them.  All of that blast-proofing would possibly make the buisiness unprofitable.  Perhaps better ventilation, such as vents that allow air to fly through the cargo bay, cooling the cargo down to near the ambient temperature.

-Penguin

[CAP1]

And heavy, do you realize what those kinds of reinforcements weigh?  In addition to that, you'd have to have them made, and put up with the worse gas mileage that you get from them.  All of that blast-proofing would possibly make the buisiness unprofitable.  Perhaps better ventilation, such as vents that allow air to fly through the cargo bay, cooling the cargo down to near the ambient temperature.

-Penguin

NOPE. THEY're already in use. just not here.

[Golfer]

the fact is, that none of this is necessary. it isn't doing anything except pissing off people.

if they TRULY wanted to prevent this kind of thing......then handle any possible attempted hijacking as the isrealies did back in.....1977? 1979?

then they can install the same blast proof doors and bulkheads, and blast proof cargo containers. but...then that'd be too easy, and sensible.

Exactly what sort of blast proof cargo containers are you referring to?  Do you mean built into the airplane on passenger airframes or freight containers you'd see loaded onto FedEx airplanes?

[CAP1]

Exactly what sort of blast proof cargo containers are you referring to?  Do you mean built into the airplane on passenger airframes or freight containers you'd see loaded onto FedEx airplanes?

i had seen somewhere containers......the containers external shape conformed to the cargo compartments of the aircraft they were made for.......i was pretty sure i had seen this for the israelis, as they did these measures to prevent terrorist activities.
 i could be wrong, as i can't find anything right now though........

[Golfer]

There may well be but AFAIK are not in widespread use.  There are cargo containers that are designed to fit in airplanes that are in widespread use with freight haulers all over the world but with any meaningful explosive you're not going to be afforded much or any protection in the event of a blast without getting prohibitive with weight/volume.  It's not uncommon to bulk out before you weigh out (meaning you can't fit any more stuff in the airplane but are still under Max Takeoff Weight) depending on the airframe and cutting into that isn't really a good option for the operators.

I don't disagree that there are many things wrong with the TSA but that's another thread for another time and place.

Sticking our heads so far up our collective tulips when it comes to making everything safe that we can see out our mouths isn't a good option either.  I never was concerned with a bomb on my airplanes but you can be damn sure I care about lithium ion batteries and know how I intend to fight the fire should it present itself.  The point is you can't bomb-proof an airplane and still expect it to fly.  Even some of the reinforced cockpit doors have fallen off of their hinges (this happened to me) swung open with a loud thwack a few knots before V1 coming out of DCA (this too happened to me) resulting in a bug-eyed flight attendant staring into the cockpit and a bottle of water rolling down the aisle.  Made it over halfway back too...

[Flench]

 

[Babalonian]

I'd rather not speculate on terrorism or over-anti-terrorism in this thread, that's a whole other can of worms (for the record, I think "bomb-proof containers" for improving current aircraft safety makes as much sence as eating raw chicken packed into a latex to prevent you from getting sick after eating it.  Either our entire bodies are designed to handle eating a raw chicken here or there, or they just aren't.). 

I am more curious about the matter Oak brought up though, are they seriously considering the cause of this crash to be a large shipment of lithium batteries that overheated??? (as oak pointed out, I know cargo holds get cramped and stuffy, but my very basic chemistry knowledge tells me that the UPS flight that went down was then more of an oven on wings than a Boeing 747... and if memory serves me, didn't it also crash at night and experience trouble imediatley after TO and at low altitude?)  Either there's something about lithium batteries onboard aircraft that is a serious safety issue or this is a wild goose chase.

[CAP1]

There may well be but AFAIK are not in widespread use.  There are cargo containers that are designed to fit in airplanes that are in widespread use with freight haulers all over the world but with any meaningful explosive you're not going to be afforded much or any protection in the event of a blast without getting prohibitive with weight/volume.  It's not uncommon to bulk out before you weigh out (meaning you can't fit any more stuff in the airplane but are still under Max Takeoff Weight) depending on the airframe and cutting into that isn't really a good option for the operators.

I don't disagree that there are many things wrong with the TSA but that's another thread for another time and place.

Sticking our heads so far up our collective tulips when it comes to making everything safe that we can see out our mouths isn't a good option either.  I never was concerned with a bomb on my airplanes but you can be damn sure I care about lithium ion batteries and know how I intend to fight the fire should it present itself.  The point is you can't bomb-proof an airplane and still expect it to fly.  Even some of the reinforced cockpit doors have fallen off of their hinges (this happened to me) swung open with a loud thwack a few knots before V1 coming out of DCA (this too happened to me) resulting in a bug-eyed flight attendant staring into the cockpit and a bottle of water rolling down the aisle.  Made it over halfway back too...

UNderstood.

i should apologize.....i think i inadvertently hijacked(no pun intended) this thread into an argument, and that was crappy of me. for this i do apologize to all of you.

[Golfer]

This accident wasn't terrorism.  I'd bet every paycheck I'll ever receive on it.

Lithium Ion Battery Fire:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJCZ4ayioCU

How the fire actually started and what actually fueled it is still speculatory at the moment and while lithium ion batteries simply being shipped no matter how in what bulk don't present an issue in and of themselves there is potential a hot cell that's in a powered computer for example can be stuck in an insulated area.