kamikaze

[Krusty]

I don't really think it would be insensitive, considering those pilots knew exactly what they were doing and exactly what the consequences would be.

Most of them were blindly following a dogmatic belief that the emperor was a god and kept ignorant intentionally so as to be ruled by said emperor. Such practices are still alive in parts of the world today.

Doesn't mean the people knew what they were doing, if they were lied to and misled their entire lives. To them there simply was no way of objecting, saying "No, I don't wanna do this" -- and basically most were unskilled civilians rushed through rudimentary flight school with no skills whatsoever.

[Tupac]

I say that we should have it, and afterwards, you aren't allowed to fly for 2 months 

Nah, make you pay 200 bomber points to crash a Val into a CV for 4k damage.

[Tupac]

Most of them were blindly following a dogmatic belief that the emperor was a god and kept ignorant intentionally so as to be ruled by said emperor. Such practices are still alive in parts of the world today.

Doesn't mean the people knew what they were doing, if they were lied to and misled their entire lives. To them there simply was no way of objecting, saying "No, I don't wanna do this" -- and basically most were unskilled civilians rushed through rudimentary flight school with no skills whatsoever.

They twisted the samurai code to make it look like kamikaze was OK.

I agree with you 100%, but they all knew that they WOULD die.

[Krusty]

But if you're brainwashed that death in the name of the emperor means nothing bad will happen, do they REALLY know what death is?

That's a debate for another time I suppose. We're both on the same page.

[Tupac]

But if you're brainwashed that death in the name of the emperor means nothing bad will happen, do they REALLY know what death is?

Never thought about it like that.

[Dichotomy]

Welcome to the asylum Pinewood 

[Tigger29]

But if you're brainwashed that death in the name of the emperor means nothing bad will happen, do they REALLY know what death is?

That's a debate for another time I suppose. We're both on the same page.

It's really not much different than suicide bombers who believe that they will spend the rest of eternity with 72 virgins...

All I want to know is.. how do they know that they aren't MALE virgins?!

[Karnak]

Krusty,

You ought to read some of the history on the kamikazes.  While I am sure some were a human approximation of the unthinking, unfeeling robots you claim they all were, most were not.  Most were young men who saw no way out of a horrible situation and despite not wanting to die, followed through on what they were told they had to do for a wide number of personal reasons.

[LLogann]

Tough call Brotha...........  If you have every spoken to any Marines that fought on one of those islands in the SoPac, you would hear stories of men, women, children, jumping from the top of cliffs.  Japanese soldiers killing eachother so as not to be captured.  The social hierarchy in Japan was so structured with silly things (even to this day), that I find it hard to believe many of those kamikaze pilots had a problem with their given job knowing that they were saving their  families.  (at least what they were told)

Krusty,

You ought to read some of the history on the kamikazes.  While I am sure some were a human approximation of the unthinking, unfeeling robots you claim they all were, most were not.  Most were young men who saw no way out of a horrible situation and despite not wanting to die, followed through on what they were told they had to do for a wide number of personal reasons.

[Ack-Ack]

Most of them were blindly following a dogmatic belief that the emperor was a god and kept ignorant intentionally so as to be ruled by said emperor. Such practices are still alive in parts of the world today.


Doesn't mean the people knew what they were doing, if they were lied to and misled their entire lives. To them there simply was no way of objecting, saying "No, I don't wanna do this" -- and basically most were unskilled civilians rushed through rudimentary flight school with no skills whatsoever.

You should watch the documentary "Wings of Defeat" and you'll see that most had a love for their country, hated the hypocrisy of their leaders, loathed the idea of dying but had a strong sense of duty and felt there was no other real option.  You'll also see that the Kamikazi pilot was hardly "unskilled civilians" as the recruits were considered to be amongst Japanese "elite".  The majority of recruits were made up of college and former college students with a third of the kamikazi pilots being army and navy officers.  The reason why there was such a large number of college and former college students was that the regular Japanese army and navy pilots refused to volunteer for the Special Attack Force, in fact not one single kamikazi was a graduate of the army or navy air academies.  It was because of the inability to secure recruits from the army and navy that led to the mass recruitment of college and former college students.

ack-ack

[Karnak]

LLogann,

The Japanese certainly believed a lot of misinformation about what would happen to them if they fell into US hands, but these guys were not going "Hooray!  I get to slam myself into an American ship at 350mph!"

[Tupac]

It's really not much different than suicide bombers who believe that they will spend the rest of eternity with 72 virgins...

All I want to know is.. how do they know that they aren't MALE virgins?!

It will be 72 trekkies.

[Krusty]

Ack Ack I don't buy that revisionist romanticized view of them. Calling them the "elite" is also a laugh. While one or two notable people performed it (and were used as martyrs by the Empire afterwards to promote it) the majority (note I said "most") were untrained and rushed through training.

Just like the Soviet Union did to its civilians pushed into the ground war, and just like North Korea does today, they were brainwashed in a total environment of lies and fanaticism.

Why do you think terrorists recruit at college campuses in the US for the past 50 years? Radicals, extremists all over the world also look for the young and naive, those looking for a path.

You got 2 paths: religion and teenagers in college.

In Japan the religion wouldn't fly (a la US cults, sects, etc), so the next step before marching mom and pop from the fishing villages to the meat grinder was to see how many they could dupe, con, or conive into doing it before rounding them up at gunpoint.

It's been seen many times in history, and repainting it as heroic is just an abuse to the greater truth: These folks were bred into ignorance, servitude, and had no options or hope.

EDIT: Disclaimer: Ignorance does not denote lack of education. One can be taught physics, math, and still be totally ignorant of the world and of their potential as human beings.

[Ack-Ack]

Ack Ack I don't buy that revisionist romanticized view of them. Calling them the "elite" is also a laugh. While one or two notable people performed it (and were used as martyrs by the Empire afterwards to promote it) the majority (note I said "most") were untrained and rushed through training.

It's not revisionism, it's the truth that is backed up by the historical record.  In fact, the documentary "Wings of Death" could hardly be considered a 'revisionist romantic view' of the kamikazi.  It's actually a very damning piece of work that shows how the military sentenced these recruits to die because the military could not admit or accept defeat.  The interviews with surviving kamikazi pilots showed that they were neither fanatical or suicidal.  In one of the interviews, one of the survivors tells how sometimes they would put in an extra pilot to ensure that the primary pilot didn't chicken out and if he did, the 2nd pilot was to kill the first and take over the controls to finish the mission.  Hardly a procedure if they were fanatical or suicidal.  In another interview, the survivor explains how they had orders not to attack if they couldn't see their targets and to return to base so as not to 'waste their death' and that one pilot returned nine times and was then put in front of a firing squad and executed for not doing his 'duty'.

Why do you think that none of the graduates of the army or navy air academies volunteered or why such a low number of kamikazi pilots were taken from the ranks of the army and navy pilots?  Because they didn't want to die.

The notion that they were fanatical and suicidal was purely the work of the Japanese propoganda machine in order to portray them as willing volunteers when in fact the vast majority were forcibly drafted.

Once you take a look behind the propoganda (mostly Japanese), it's a really tragic story. 


ack-ack

[321BAR]

A little below the belt mate.

a little? betty's one of the more fun flyers i've had the chance to know. especially in KOTH.