Question About The HO

[Ack-Ack]

If you pull the trigger on someone that is trying to avoid the HO, it's still a HO

No, by the definition of what a head on shot is it is not.  In order for it to be a true head on merge, both planes need to have a firing solution.  If one plane breaks or otherwise maneuvers to avoid the head on at the merge, it is no longer a head on merge as the plane maneuvering is no longer presenting a head on merge.


ack-ack

[Spikes]

Also instead of HOing you could always try Jousting.

[Crash Orange]

Nope.  Now you are off a gun to gun solution and you are subject to frontal quarter attack.  Truly different shot angles and no longer a HO.  Your definition of a HO's envelope is too large.

With respect, I disagree. It's not just about angles, it's about intent and possible outcomes. If both players easily COULD HAVE a solution when they come within range to fire, but one chooses to evade instead, it's still a HO. In other words, if you ATTEMPT to HO, any immediate resulting shot is a HO regardless of what your opponent does.

Ack-Ack, the point to me is that both players DO have a firing solution, but one chose not to take it. Depends partly on how early he maneuvered to avoid, I guess.

A non-HO, front quarter shot is where the shooter dispatches the victim before the latter is able to bring his guns to bear, or from an angle and relative vectors in which it never would have been possible for the victim to get a shot in even if the attacker is only 20 degrees off his nose. The victim never had a solution open to him, the attacker didn't win a dice roll, he knew he wasn't going to get a face full of lead whatever happened.

That being said, some HOs are more equal than others. If I'm taking off and can barely get wheels off the ground before Captain Vulchoid screams down the runway straight toward my nose guns-a-blazing, I'm going to pitch up and shoot him if I possibly can, and why not? He's got e and position, I can't possibly get out of his way and am probably dead whatever I do anyway, so it's on him to avoid the HO if he doesn't want to roll the dice on dying. The same is generally true whenever one player has such a commanding advantage in e and position that he can freely dictate the terms of the fight - if that ends up as a HO, it's primarily the fault of the dominant fighter, he could have avoided giving his opponent a shot while the opponent probably couldn't. And if you're flying a Brewster against a 110 your opponent would be stupid not to take advantage of any HO opportunity he gets - an opportunity that can only occur if the Brew driver does something very wrong.

[papjohns]

I don't like the HO because it's a crap shoot, sometime you win sometimes you loose, sometime you collide. In all three of those senarios show me whats fun about them. I fly for the fight and will almost never fire on a nose to nose pass. With that being said, I almost never make a nose on nose pass, there for it's much harder for them to HO.

^^^ This.

Here is the problem with a HO. It's not 50/50 as some seem to suggest all the time. It's less (ususally depending on what plane you are in). The outcome is not binary (WIN/LOSE). The outcome can be any number of things:

YOU WIN, HE LOSES.
HE WINS, YOU LOSES
YOU BOTH LOSE
YOU WIN, BUT COLLIDE
YOU WIN BUT MISS PARTS
etc etc etc

Therefore, it is a low percentage shot. So depending on the situation you are in it might be a smart move (ex: You are in a 10v1) or it might be a dumb move (ex: you are in a turny fragile plane in a 1v1). However, the majority of the time, it's plain stupid to HO from a tactical perspective. If you are in a 1v1; and are going for the head-on in most cases you need your brain examined.

Then Again I Had Some Guy Tell GDZILA last night that he "HO'd his LANCS" how dare him....

Papa

[CAP1]

^^^ This.

Here is the problem with a HO. It's not 50/50 as some seem to suggest all the time. It's less (ususally depending on what plane you are in). The outcome is not binary (WIN/LOSE). The outcome can be any number of things:

YOU WIN, HE LOSES.
HE WINS, YOU LOSES
YOU BOTH LOSE
YOU WIN, BUT COLLIDE
YOU WIN BUT MISS PARTS
etc etc etc

Therefore, it is a low percentage shot. So depending on the situation you are in it might be a smart move (ex: You are in a 10v1) or it might be a dumb move (ex: you are in a turny fragile plane in a 1v1). However, the majority of the time, it's plain stupid to HO from a tactical perspective. If you are in a 1v1; and are going for the head-on in most cases you need your brain examined.

Then Again I Had Some Guy Tell GDZILA last night that he "HO'd his LANCS" how dare him....

Papa

i was in a 5 v 1 once. the only one not ho'ing was me. the funny thing was, that the guy that got me didn't get me by ho'ing.....he made a beautiful snapshot.

[grizz441]

I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..

Scenario #1

I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't.

So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario..

When you get good you will start to recognize these situations before they happen and craft your maneuver ahead of time so instead of a HO merge, you create a spiral climb or a reversal, depending on E states, throttle control, etc.  One you turn nose on at a guy and he turns nose on at you, it's a tough spot.  The trick is to recognize that it is going to come to that before it does and do something different.

[Plazus]

It takes 2.

So very true. Everytime I put this on Channel 200 after someone whines, a whole bunch of noobs start spitting in anger, telling me their definition of a HO. Which is usually this: "he pulled the trigger and killed me! waaa  "

I just simply say: "Why the hell did you fly into his guns then???"

[redman555]

I never mind about a head on, why?  Well #1 I refuse to fire unless I see tracers exit their guns. #2 if they want to ho they are screwed cause my Yak-9U's 20mm will rip straight through his plane. 

-BigBOBCH

[uptown]

Always expect your opponent will ho you and adjust accordingly. Once they go by my 3/9 line, I've already begun my turn, where as he hasn't because he was depending on that opening shot for the kill. The rest is just a matter of baiting him into a mistake and adjusting for position, staying a move or two ahead of him.
For the most part, the guys that ho on 1st merge are fairly predictable and can be beaten easily(if I don't have to break off because of another con) It's the guys that DON'T ho on the merge that I have the hardest time with. That tells me that they are confident in their ACMs and don't need to take a 50/50 chance at a kill.  


Avoiding a headon merge is something I wish the AH trainers would have a clinic on sometime.

[uptown]

So very true. Everytime I put this on Channel 200 after someone whines, a whole bunch of noobs start spitting in anger, telling me their definition of a HO. Which is usually this: "he pulled the trigger and killed me! waaa  "

I just simply say: "Why the hell did you fly into his guns then???"

I got shot down the other nite trying to barrel roll thur the CHog guns. I honestly was trying to avoid it, but he was bound and determined to shoot me in the face. Sure I could have dove away and let Merlin take over but .............

[Ack-Ack]

With respect, I disagree. It's not just about angles, it's about intent and possible outcomes. If both players easily COULD HAVE a solution when they come within range to fire, but one chooses to evade instead, it's still a HO. In other words, if you ATTEMPT to HO, any immediate resulting shot is a HO regardless of what your opponent does.

Ack-Ack, the point to me is that both players DO have a firing solution, but one chose not to take it. Depends partly on how early he maneuvered to avoid, I guess.

You are still incorrect though, all you are doing is trying to change the definition of what a head on shot is to fit your own needs.  You can only have a head on shot if both planes are traveling head on, if one bandit maneuvers to avoid it, it is no longer a head on merge regardless if you try and change it to fit your own self-made definition.

For example, Bandit A and Bandit B are heading towards each other in what appears to be a head on merge.  Just prior to the merge, Bandit B pulls into the vertical or similiar maneuver and no longer presents a head on target and if Bandit A fires, he no longer is firing from a head on position and instead has an angle in front of the 3/9 line of Bandit B (lead turn (i.e. front deflection shot)) which isn't a head on by virtue of its definition.

Again, regardless of what your personal definition of what a head on shot is, the above scenario is clearly not a head on shot by definition.

ack-ack

[SunBat]

Also instead of HOing you could always try Jousting.

Clearly this.  Clearly. 

[oTRALFZo]

Learn to fear that guy who does not HO, for he will hand you your arse in most cases.

[CAP1]

I have been playing for about 1 1/2 years now. Most of it in attack planes and Gv's. This last few months after the new version came out, I have been flying and learning fighters. Many of you have seen me in your gun sights just before I go down in flames.. PS: Thanks for at least giving me a good training film to watch..

Scenario #1

I,m in my 190D, the red guy is in his plane. We end up turning into each other. He is heading straight for me and I am heading straight for him. We collide. Sometimes he dies.sometimes I do.
Who hoed who? I could have turned but wouldn't. The red guy could have turned but wouldn't. unless you were both shooting at each other, neither of ya ho'd either. the collision in that instance should be easily avoided though. you should be shallow diving, and possibly off to one side or the other. give yourself some distance to be able to turn into him.

So what constitutes a HO? Doesn't each guy have the choice to disengage? I do not want to turn away for fear of giving the red guy my six. Just curious because I have found myself in this situation many times. He cant blame me for Hoing and I cant blame him for it. We both could have avoided it.. Just curious what the experienced virtual pilots have to say about this scenario..

you don't have to turn away to avoid him ho'ing you. go right by him. if you remotely think he's going to try to ho ya, then do not point your nose directly at his plane. as soon as you do, you're setting yourself up for it. slight maneuvers to avoid it.

 have you talked to a trainer in the ta about this yet? they can help ya in about a half hour.

[Becinhu]

You ask tough questions...........

As your skill level begins to increase you will "see" the ways to get out of the ho.........  But as you stated, you can't just turn away and you have to always expect a Head On............... 

It ain't easy.    When Fugitive is flying, he is still just a red icon.  I'm 99% he isn't going to ho, but how do I know it's him. 



These days, it basically breaks down like this.......  If the enemy opens fire from 1000 dtt, he is a newb and I'll beat his ho with my own.  If the enemy hasn't fired at 600 dtt, he is either don5090 or not going to ho.  (don5090 likes to get close)  At 400 dtt, pull a hi G move and the enemy, even the good ho'ers, will have trouble to get back into a firing position.......  Furthermore depending on his skill level will pull hard on his stick, lose a ton of E, and be ready to die. 

But there are so many philosophies people use for the anti-ho.  It's a crap shoot sometimes.

umm he calls himself donHO for a reason.  I have flown with don since day one. he is a great wingman, but if you choose to go nose on with him he will let loose.