Author Topic: Japanese Profiles.  (Read 58817 times)

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #195 on: June 30, 2016, 12:06:56 AM »
After looking at this aircraft some more I have come to the conclusion it is one & the same in all these photos. As well as the video.

The former squadron logo on the right side of the tail is white as seen in the video. The left side former squadron logo  however looks a little dark for white so the profile showing yellow seems to be correct. :aok


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZkXPB1tg4




















Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #196 on: June 30, 2016, 12:46:22 AM »
Found a profile & a wrecked 68th Sentai image that seems to be in the ball park.





Also this image is just slightly larger than the previous version I have posted. It shows a little more of the tail showing clearly a 68th Sentai tail marking.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #197 on: June 30, 2016, 12:53:14 PM »
Cant find any photos that confirm these two profiles of KI-61-II's. The image below is the only one I have that does show a number under the tail not very clear though.






Offline bustr

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #198 on: June 30, 2016, 05:10:01 PM »
I just bet you have a hard drive full of Ki100 photos chafing at the bit to get on these pages...... :lol
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #199 on: June 30, 2016, 11:27:41 PM »
I just bet you have a hard drive full of Ki100 photos chafing at the bit to get on these pages...... :lol

Not really very few were made.
Enough to fill AHIII skin roster though if I was to take a guess.  :D

Offline Volron

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #200 on: July 01, 2016, 12:33:15 AM »
Makes me wonder how many Ki-67's you have for when she gets redone. :)
Quote from: hitech
Wow I find it hard to believe it has been almost 38 days since our last path. We should have release another 38 versions by now  :bhead
HiTech
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What on Earth makes you think that i said that sir?!
My guess would be scotch.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #201 on: July 01, 2016, 12:44:11 AM »
Makes me wonder how many Ki-67's you have for when she gets redone. :)

Even less but I have a very special few that will be different to the norm.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #202 on: July 01, 2016, 01:19:45 AM »
A slightly larger view of the aircraft tail than a previous cropped view of the same photo.



Another 244th Sentai photo I have not seen before.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #203 on: July 02, 2016, 02:40:04 AM »
A slightly larger view of the aircraft tail than a previous cropped view of the same photo.



Another 244th Sentai photo I have not seen before.



Some profiles of two of the above aircraft as well as a few others.






Kill marking image off a KI-61.



Larger colour image I have posted before.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #204 on: July 02, 2016, 02:43:17 AM »
Another image of white #15 244th.


Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #205 on: July 04, 2016, 05:36:41 PM »
Left this one till last for it is the most controversial.

It's hard to argue the merits of someone who was there & hand drew the sketch as well as taking the photograph below.
However a number of sites have taken issue with it & they make some good points. Interesting side note even though a US serviceman explained in detail the aircraft's appearance not one profile I can find has it drawn per the description. If the links below are correct & it was used only as a ramming aircraft for B-29's then based off the rules on skins it is out.

http://arawasi-wildeagles.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2015-09-15T20:01:00%2B09:00&max-results=10&start=77&by-date=false

I am going with this link an eagle is on the side.

http://www.j-aircraft.org/smf/index.php?topic=16362.msg115221#msg115221

Since we do have two aircraft from this squadron with fuselage artwork I believe we can rule out US servicemen with paint cans with no time on their hands repainting Japanese aircraft for fun. Never bought into that theory. I am sure some officer would have taken issue with an American soldier drawing Japanese aircraft attacking US war ships.






















« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:39:44 PM by lyric1 »

Offline Krusty

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #206 on: July 05, 2016, 02:44:38 PM »
Lyric, you've got a lot of reference material, but I think you need to be a little more picky with what you put up. A lot of it is wrecked aircraft out of context, non-combat cannibalized airframes, and situations where you really can't make any reasonable (reasonable, mind you - not saying it has to be absolutely clear) assumption that it was a combat aircraft.

Case in point...


The clover has been pretty well debunked at this point. It didn't exist in the Japanese Culture, so they wouldn't have painted it on their aircraft.

One of the better write-ups I've found on this (many many MANY years back -- we've even discussed it on these forums a few times) sums it up as such:

(original link long gone, using archived copy/paste)

Quote
Posted By: Don Marsh <marsh44@fuse.net>
Date: Thursday, 12 October 2000, at 11:47 a.m.
 
There is only one photo of this very curiously marked Ki 61 (read below). I will send you a scan. Also, here is a copy of a posting I made here on the j-aircraft
army board back in June of 1999 regarding the markings of this bird...
Many of you are familiar with the existence of one particular Ki 61 aircraft found at Chofu AB; described as a "chocolate bar" brown Tony with white combat stripe & insignia of the 244th Sentai and displaying a large "kelly-green shamrock" on both sides of the fuselage. At issue is the shamrock.
It is my contention that this graphic is not a shamrock [genus trifolium], but is in fact katabami (wood sorrel) [genus oxalis]. Although this plant produces a small five-petaled flower, emblems using this plant as a motif are almost always based on the three-petaled leaf. To western sensibilities this design could easily be mistaken for a three-leaf clover. Wood sorrel was used to make medicinal salves and also to polish bronze mirrors, hence it was also known as kagamigusa (mirror plant). Wood sorrel is almost always portrayed with sword blade devices as part of the design, either appearing tiny and integrated into the central base of the leaf or in larger format between each leaf or both. When appearing with swords separating the leaves, it is called ken katabami (Wood sorrel with swords).
Known as a military crest, Katabami was a common & popular crest with the warrior class, especially in the form of ken-katabami. It is commonly found on weapons, armor etc. of samurai dating back to the Kamakura period (1185-1333).
To my knowledge there is only one photo of this a/c (see: Broken Wings of the Samurai, pg 79 or FAoW #17, pg 82). If this is the only photographic representation of the alleged "shamrock," the angle of the a/c is so oblique that there isn't enough information to do an accurate or authentic representation of this tri-leafed subject. Even Mr. Nohara's excellent art is rough conjecture. One may only say that the a/c had something that looked like a shamrock to westerners (or katabami to a WWII era Nihon-jin?) painted on the fuselage and refer to the photo for approximate scale and location.
There is no explicable rationale for a shamrock to have been displayed on the side of a Japanese aircraft and historians have found this curious since noted in 1945. It is even less likely that this rather un-Japanese symbol would have been employed at such a time of extreme nationalism. Using this same rationale, the historic & culturally popular military image of katabami becomes obvious, especially in regard to a 20th century samurai pilot employing an 800 year old Japanese tradition.
This is an important issue, not just for the purpose of proper historic identification, but to better understand the culture of the time and spirit of the people. It also serves to restore the pilot of this a/c to his heritage, tradition and military lineage rather than project the likely erroneous scenario that he was "borrowing" a european device.

EDIT: Examples of a ken katabami:



« Last Edit: July 05, 2016, 02:50:23 PM by Krusty »

Offline bustr

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #207 on: July 05, 2016, 02:47:01 PM »
Lyric,

This post is just to get us Ki61 dingy isn't it...... :O


bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline lyric1

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #208 on: July 06, 2016, 12:19:01 AM »
Lyric, you've got a lot of reference material, but I think you need to be a little more picky with what you put up. A lot of it is wrecked aircraft out of context, non-combat cannibalized airframes, and situations where you really can't make any reasonable (reasonable, mind you - not saying it has to be absolutely clear) assumption that it was a combat aircraft.

Case in point...


The clover has been pretty well debunked at this point. It didn't exist in the Japanese Culture, so they wouldn't have painted it on their aircraft.

One of the better write-ups I've found on this (many many MANY years back -- we've even discussed it on these forums a few times) sums it up as such:

(original link long gone, using archived copy/paste)

EDIT: Examples of a ken katabami:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

We have had this conversation on the clover leaf before on the forums as you have pointed out. I don't dispute the findings on the Japanese plant versus clover. One of the links I posted has the same findings. I guess I didn't explain my self enough in my other post. What I am saying now there is no plant leaf on the plane but a Raptor carrying a bomb. I have changed my mind from my previous postings in other threads about this aircraft.

Some how at some point something is askew with the photo & the drawing & the description of what the author did or didn't do is at question. Because he took the photo he drew the sketch & he wrote the description in his book that he published. He is long dead so we will never know. It was a ramming aircraft so it should not be done as a skin per the rules. I only posted it because at some point some one will want it done. Buyer beware is all I can say on the choice of this one as a skin.

Now as far as what aircraft did or didn't see combat.
Really?
Yes there is a number of wrecked & scavenged air frames but how did they get that way. Oh yeah allied pilots bombed and strafed the hell out of Japanese airfields. Did all of them take off & get into combat???
Doubt it.
Did they sit on the ground and get attacked???
Yes.
So they kind of were in a form of combat in my book. Were the Japanese running out of resources & out of desperation picked over the leftovers to piece a viable fighter together again sure.

The vast majority of every profile I have in this thread has no substantiating facts to prove they ever flew combat. Even kill markings that where placed on Japanese fighters towards wars end were done to just help with morale within the squadrons in some cases. So they are not entirely a reliable method either to confirm combat missions.

All I am doing is throwing viable options on the table for the skinners to choose from. Most documented information by the Japanese simply is not there to be found & language is a barrier that I can sort of work around on the internet. Published books not so easy to translate. Found one link in Japan where the Kamikaze pilots if they wanted could take the wife along for the ride!! Some of them did.  :O Hows that for devotion. If they want to skin Kamikaze aircraft that's their choice there is plenty of them in this thread.
Since a few of them are also in game I kind of wonder if that rule is even enforced.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2016, 01:09:41 AM by lyric1 »

Offline Greebo

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Re: Japanese Profiles.
« Reply #209 on: July 06, 2016, 02:05:15 AM »
I think a distinction needs to be made between aircraft ramming aircraft and aircraft ramming ships. The 244th had a ramming squadron but it was not a Kamikaze outfit. The pilots were given parachutes and used them on occasion. The 244th's group commander undertook and survived at least one successful ramming attack on a B-29, he reckoned you had to "land" your aircraft on the other one rather than plough right through it.  Also the German and Soviet air forces employed similar tactics when things got desperate and I don't see any ban on ramming FW 190s. You could make a case that ramming Ki-61s had their guns and armour stripped out to save weight and so were technically not the same type of aircraft being skinned but I don't think there is any moral issue here.

As far as true Kamikaze aircraft go I wasn't aware there was an actual HTC rule about it, like with swastikas. In the past Japanese players have expressed reservations about having such skins in the game so most skinners have just refrained from doing them.