Author Topic: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing  (Read 24341 times)

Offline Brooke

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The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« on: September 12, 2010, 03:15:30 PM »
Based on a discussion in another topic (which was not about P-51's).

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 03:18:52 PM »
It started with this (which was originally about the P-38, but I foolishly put in one sentence about the P-51, which caused a derailment of the discussing into things totally about the P-51):

"Parasite" isn't the word I was looking for.  The flow over surfaces is indeed turbulent -- the entire plane's surface was not designed to produce and could not produce laminar flow.  No WWII airplane did that.  Even laminar-flow wings on the likes of the P-51 probably didn't produce laminar flow once you factor in design variation, surface roughness, dirt, etc., and even if they did, they didn't produce laminar flow over the whole airframe.   Also, just because there is a non-laminar layer of flow does not mean that huge increases in turbulence off a junction can't cause problems.

The tail buffetting that the wing fillet eliminated was not due to inadequate tail stiffening according to the following.

"Wind tunnel tests at Cal Tech established that tail flutter was the result of turbulent airflow created by the sharp juncture at wing and fuselage, and it was eliminated by a wing fillet that smoothed out the airflow over the tail."  From American Aviation, by Christy and Cook, and you can see the excerpt here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=E6yzMq7Z-yIC&pg=PA178&lpg=PA178&dq=p-38+wing+fillet&source=bl&ots=lLWgRD_uDN&sig=yYV4Ff__D6DJeLVdQinv-gLdSy0&hl=en&ei=gNiLTMLFHo6msQOzuYCIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=p-38%20wing%20fillet&f=false

Other references saying the same:

The Lockheed P-38 Lightning, by Bodie.  The marvelous and definitive book on all aspects of the P-38.
http://www.amazon.com/Lockheed-P-38-Lightning-Warren-Bodie/dp/0962935956/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284234200&sr=8-1

http://www.fighter-planes.com/info/p38_lightning.htm

http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p38.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-38_Lightning


Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 03:19:51 PM »
Oh... by the way.

The P-51 was the first laminar flow design ever implemented. You are correct in saying that it did not experience laminar flow... but only if you mean over the entire wing. Yes the P-51 was designed for laminar flow and yes it did experience laminar flow over 40-50% of its airfoil by design. Yes there were problems with reduced performance over theoretical and design potential... but to say that the P-51 never experienced laminar flow over any portion of its airfoil is not an honest statement. If the Mustang never experienced any form of laminar flow then it would never have the performance it did and does.

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 03:21:14 PM »

Quote from: Chalenge
but only if you mean over the entire wing.


Yes, that's what I mean

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 03:21:48 PM »
In that case it doesnt matter. In having laminar flow over 40-50% of the surface area you are eliminating that much effective drag (turbulent) and because the layers are not separated until the point of minimum pressure the effective profile drag is much less whereas on an aircraft with turbulent drag over the entire wing surface (99.9%) the profile drag can in effect be as much as doubled. Also... the laminar airfoil of the P-51 eliminates the increase of the coefficient of drag for the majority of the effective AOA. What that means is that as a pilot increases the AOA the coefficient of lift increases but the coefficient of drag remains constant for 65% (approximately) of the effective AOA. This is why a P-51 can raise its nose as much as eight degrees (or a little more) and the drag remains the same as if the wing were level and the P-51 can use its E to zoom to great advantage. No P-51 should ever zoom straight up unless the pilot is willing to give up a great deal of his E to do it (the coefficient of drag will climb at a greater rate than on a Spitfire for instance).

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2010, 03:23:08 PM »
I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that a P-51 with wing at 8 degrees angle of attack has substantially more drag than a P-51 with wing at zero degrees angle of attack.

Offline Brooke

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2010, 03:26:22 PM »
Also, the following is directly to the point of what I first wrote:  "Even laminar-flow wings on the likes of the P-51 probably didn't produce laminar flow once you factor in design variation, surface roughness, dirt, etc."

From http://yarchive.net/mil/laminar_flow.html

From: Charles.K.Scott@dartmouth.edu (Charles K. Scott)
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Mustang, was it's wing really laminar flow?  Very long
Date: 5 Feb 1997 14:13:04 GMT

Was the Mustang's laminar flow wing laminar or not?

That is a question asked often in several groups and recently, after
finishing "Pursue and Destroy" by Leonard "Kit" Carson, I believe I
have found a definitive answer.

Mr. Carson's credentials are that 1. He flew the Mustang in combat.  2.
He was an engineer who understood aerodynamics.  3. He was a test pilot
for a while after W.W.II.  He goes into extreme technical detail while
telling about the Mustang and his career flying it.

Carson begins his analysis of the Mustang and it's laminar flow wing
back in the late 20's and early 30's when NACA, the National Advisory
Committee for Aerodynamics began it's research on airfoils, airflow,
and other aspects of flying.  The airplane companies were in no
position to do this research because they did not have the money to
develop and build wind tunnels.  He described airfoil research prior to
NACA as piecemeal, with many airfoils being developed by the OTLAR
method (Oh That Looks About Right, my words, not his)

It was during the thirties that NACA established the relationship
between turbulent flow and drag.  Their measurements indicated that the
3/32 inch rivets heads and lap joints on the typical metal airliner
"dissipated" 182 horsepower.  On one airplane they were measuring, they
found that a coat of paint cost the airplane 91 horsepower over the
same airplane with bare aluminum.  They learned that mere dust, fine
sand or a piece of scotch tape "would cause the smooth laminar layer
next to the wing surface to jump over To a turbulent, high drag
condition."

Then, in 1938, in a wind tunnel designed to smooth out the airflow
through the tunnel (designed by Jacobs and Dryden, prior to this wind
tunnel, flow through the tunnel was too turbulent to test laminar
theories) a new type of airfoil was tested that set new and incredible
drag coefficients compared to any airfoil previously tested.  It
recorded a drag coefficient of .003 "which was about half of the lowest
ever recorded before for an airfoil of similar thickness."

Further tests conducted in England "demonstrated that laminar flow and
a reduction of drag could be obtained for a considerable distance over
a smooth full scale wing."

This was in the wind tunnel, however, and it turned out that an
enormous gulf existed between test aircraft and the wind tunnel and
combat aircraft. 

The following reasons were given by Carson explaining why in real life
laminar flow simply did not occur on the P-51's wing.

1. The effects of propeller Slipstream.  Airflow within the arc of the
prop is very turbulent, "the whole fuselage and inboard section of the
wing next to the fuselage operate in that turbulent stream.  Tests in
the Langley wind tunnel revealed that airflow within the arc of the
prop (the prop was 11 feet in diameter which meant that turbulent air
was encountered all the way out to within 13 inches of the inner gun
position) was "90 to 95 percent turbulent" (in other words non laminar)

2. Vibration:  "Engine and propeller vibrations transmitted through the
structure will induce transition to turbulence."  Tests indicated that
laminar flow on twin engine aircraft was greater with one engine
feathered than with both running.  Engineers surmised that the lack of
engine/prop vibration on the dead engine side promoted laminar flow.
Honest, that's what the book said.  Of course with both props turning,
more of the wing would be bathed in the prop slipstream which as has
been mentioned above, trips laminar flow to turbulent.

3. Airfoil surface condition: "Mud, dirt, ice and frost will induce the
transition to turbulent conditions."  "Fuel truck hoses, ammo belts,
tools, guns and large feet in GI. shoes found the way to the tops of
wings" the scrapes and dents this servicing caused had negative effects
on laminar flow.

4. Manufacturing tolerances:  "The Mustang was the smoothest airplane
around in 1940, but there is a practical limit in construction.  We're
talking about surface roughness or waviness of .01 inches which will
cause transition to turbulence."  (remember the afore mentioned dust
and scotch tape which was observed to trip airflow to turbulent).  Some
aerodynamicists have stated that true laminar flow did not occur
outside the wind tunnel until the advent of Burt Rutan's Vary E-Z in
the early 70's with it's incredibly smooth fiberglass over carved foam
wing and aft mounted engine which of course kept the wing ahead of the
prop slipstream.

5. Wing Surface Distortion in Flight:  Flight brings flight loads which
can and did distort the wing and cause ripples in the wing surface
which were fully capable of tripping the laminar flow to turbulent.

Carson went on to state: "The Mustang wing was a high lift
configuration, as well as low drag. . . the Mustang in squadron service
was not laminar to the same extent as the wind tunnel development
models.  Not one day in the past 34 years (the book was written in 74)
has it performed in that manner for any or all of the reasons just
given."

So if it wasn't the laminar flow wing that gave it it's high speed and
extensive range, what was it?

The most prominent speed secret was the dramatic reduction of cooling
drag.  Placing the airscoop on the belly just in front of the rear edge
of the wing removed it as far as was practicable from the turbulence of
the prop and placed it in a high pressure zone which augmented air
inflow.  Tests in the wind tunnel with the initial flush mounted scoop
were disappointing.  There was so much turbulence that cooling was
inadequate and some doubted that the belly scoop would work.  The
breakthrough was to space the scoop away from the surface of the belly
out of the turbulent boundary layer of the fuselage.  Further testing
showed that spacing it further out would increase cooling but at a cost
to overall drag.  Various wind tunnel tests established the spacing at
the current distance which represents the best compromise between
spacing out from the turbulent flow of the fuselage, drag and airflow.

With the flow into the scoop now smooth and relatively nonturbulent,
the duct leading to the radiator/oil cooler/intercooler was carefully
shaped to slow the air down (the duct shape moves from narrow to wide,
in other words a plenum chamber) enough from the high external speeds
to speeds through the heat exchangers that allowed the flow to extract
maximum heat from the coolant.  As the air passed through the radiators
and became heated, it expanded.  The duct shape aft of the radiator
forced this heated and expanded air into a narrow passage which gave it
considerable thrust as it exited the exhaust port.  The exhaust port
incorporated a movable hinged door that opened automatically depending
on engine temperature to augment the airflow.  The thrust realised from
this "jet" of heated air was first postulated by a British
aerodynamicist in 1935.   The realization of thrust from suitably
shaped air coolant passages is named after him and called the "Meredith
Effect".   Some have said that at certain altitudes and at a particular
power setting the Meredith effect was strong enough to actually
overcome all cooling drag; this is not regarded as being accurate by
most aerodynamicists.  It greatly contributed to overall efficiency of
the cooling system but never equaled or overcame cooling drag.

Combine the low overall drag of the Mustang with significantly greater
internal fuel tankage than either the Spitfire,  Messerschmitt or
Focke-Wulf 190 and you can easily see how it could fly so far.  Add the
two 105 gal external wing tanks and the Mustang was fully capable of
flying to any target the heavy bombers could attack in the ETO.  Kit
Carson mentioned that he flew more than 35 missions during which he was
in the cockpit for more than 5 hours. 

Finally, Carson was interested to find, while reading flight test
reports in research for his book, that the quoted top speed for the
P-51B was less than what was attained during test flying.  The
information is as follows:

Report: NA-5798
Title: "Flight Test Performance for the P-51B-1
Date: January, 1944
Test Weight: 8,460 lbs
High Speed: 453 mph true airspeed at 28,800 feet at 67" HG and 1298 HP,
war emergency power, high blower, critical altitude.

The quoted top speed for the B model Mustang is 440 mph.

I can only speculate that it is likely the test airplane used in the
above mentioned flight was a well maintained and unblemished Mustang.
It's probable that the actual combat aircraft would not be able to
quite equal that performance.  Never the less, Carson notes this
information and concludes with the following:

"It's easy to see why many pilots preferred the P-51B, including
myself, even if it did have only 4 guns and the "birdcage" canopy.  If
you can't hit'em with 4 guns, two more aren't' going to make your aim
any better."

Corky Scott

Offline Chalenge

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2010, 04:41:17 PM »
I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that a P-51 with wing at 8 degrees angle of attack has substantially more drag than a P-51 with wing at zero degrees angle of attack.

Your going to lose that pile of money... but your large sum probably equates to about $15.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2010, 04:43:27 PM »
Great post Brooke. :aok


 Really makes you appreciate the fact that some ground crews went the extra mile to clean and polish planes to help get they're favorite pilot back home.


   :salute

Offline Stoney

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2010, 05:14:33 PM »
I would be willing to bet a large sum of money that a P-51 with wing at 8 degrees angle of attack has substantially more drag than a P-51 with wing at zero degrees angle of attack.

Just happen to have this handy from a comparison I did a few years ago...



This is for 150mph TAS at sea level.  I couldn't run anything approaching max speeds because XFOIL doesn't like laminar airfoils and high R numbers, but the trend would be the same.  For comparisons, the La-7 line was plotted using the 23015 airfoil used by just about every other non-British WWII fighter.
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Offline Stoney

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2010, 05:20:38 PM »
As a footnote, I do not believe that the aerodynamic efficiencies of the P-51 were merely due to low cooling drag.  While theoretical levels of laminar flow would never have been achieved in service aircraft, the relative comparison between the P-51 and the turbulent airfoils of peer aircraft, also in the service condition, would be consistent with the relative comparison of theoretical drag.  Further, the P-51 was, from prop spinner to tail tip, optimized aerodynamically.  The design was brilliant, in my opinion, in that regard.  The laminar flow airfoil was just a piece of that overall aerodynamic optimization, but a significant one none-the-less.
"Can we be incorrect at times, absolutely, but I do believe 15 years of experience does deserve a little more credence and respect than you have given from your very first post."

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Offline smoe

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2010, 05:26:52 PM »
Another reason for the wing design was to increase the area capacity for guns, gear, and tanks in the center of the wing rather than near the front edge. The laminar flow design keep the wing’s internal space efficient, with sufficient lift, and minimal drag.

The word "laminar" definitely made the plane sound new and cool. Not far from advertising things like duel exhaust, super-hydromatic twin turbocharged multi staged intercooled intake/exhaust. Another popular feature that cracks me up is things like hood scoops, spoilers, auto-extending spoilers. Those devices may help in some cases, but for everyday driving they may make an automobile heavier with more drag, thereby, making the car slower. :rofl

Offline Chalenge

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2010, 05:31:54 PM »
Oh boy. You know once I start answering this it is going to create a wall of text that you will neither read nor accept... but it has to be done.
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Offline Karnak

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2010, 05:32:11 PM »
Which aircraft in WWII had laminar flow wings?  P-51 I know and I seem to recall reading that the Tempest and Ki-84 did as well.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: The P-51 and its laminar-flow wing
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2010, 06:37:47 PM »
This is why anecdotes are ignored.

First off you have to understand that the engineers at N.A. used all of the available data they could get their hands on and then they refined that information by making use of the wind tunnel at UCLA (actually I forget if it was UCLA or CALTECH... one of those CA schools). Most of the Universities of the day (like today) were teaching data that lagged behind laboratory discovery and so the wind tunnel was a requirement. A NA engineer remained at the wind tunnel day and night to make use of every available free moment that he could.

The stated reason number one against laminar flow is propeller slipstream. However anyone that has studied aerodynamics and propellor forces knows that there is a phenomena called 'slipstream contraction' that occurs aft of the propeller backplate. This was understood by NA engineers as it should have been by Mr Carson (the engineer that understood aerodynamics). The slipstream contraction effect is further influenced by the fuselage of the aircraft (P-51) to create a central vortex in circulation about the fuselage. You can see the engineered corrections to enhance the contraction in the design of the wing inward of the gun positions. There was also a geometric change in the airfoil from center to wingtip implemented to avoid the need for physical washout and to correct for the change in chord length. This reduced the effect of propeller slipstream to within 3-4 feet of the fuselage which you will see in the end was accounted for anyway. By the time of the P-51H this was no longer deemed necessary because of other changes to the shape of the fuselage and filleted areas (enhancing contraction further).

Number two reason is vibration which although true is more effective at created turbulent stream if it is the air that is vibrating. The effect of vibrating wind tunnels has led to trememdous efforts to reduce turbulence within the tunnel itself. A Mustang that effectively destroys its enemy through explosion will experience a loss of laminar flow. Further rebuttal of this is not possible because of the lack of details in the account. What twin engine airplane had a laminar wing? Most certainly the vast majority of aircraft of the era had laminar flow over only 2-3mm of the wings leading edge. I believe the test is altogether untrue due to the impracticality of testing pressures in real world flight... how did they know they EVER had laminar flow. Too many details are missing.

Point number three involves the wing surface. It is true that a film surface of .002" will restore laminar flow. It is also true that a single paint chip can destroy laminar flow over that portion of the wing but it does not destroy flow over the entire wing. This was discovered back in the days of the Mustang I. This is one reason you dont often see men climbing over the leading edge of a P-51. The wing root and the trailing edge of the wing behind the ammunition bays have zero effect upon laminar flow. This is also one reason most Mustangs after the B/C era are unpainted. Remember the only concern with the Mustang is the first 40-50% of the airfoil.

Point number four is fairly accurate. True laminar flow (over the majority of the wing) did not come about until modern times. That does not mean that laminar flow exists only in modern times. Even the best wings today only achieve about 96% laminar flow. Hearing that confuses people into thinking that the limited laminars of the past (40-50% laminars) never achieved thier designed goals which is not true.

Point number five is probably accurate too however I dont believe I have ever seen a photo of a Mustang with wrinkled skin. Perhaps in heavy manuevers when the pilot is stressing not only his skin but the airplanes too and while at a very high speed indeed... but no.

Then the point moves toward the low drag radiator. I agree it did help tremendously.

HOWEVER he goes a little too far in comparing the fuel load of the Mustang with Spits and 109s. It seems he also forgot a few things about the law of physics concerning lift and weight vectors. Yes the Mustang carried more fuel and it also weighs more. However... please alert CorkyJr about those wing tanks I want some!

Then he slips up and forgets that the tests conducted on the 'B' model were with removed guns and armor.

As to the cl/cd graph... this one compares the P-51 versus the Spitfire (I believe 14 model). You can clearly see that the lift created by the Spitfire wing exceeds the lift of the P-51 but only after a given AOA is exceeded does the drag begin to effect the Mustang.



Now if you need graphics of a 40-50% flow versus a 96% flow in order to understand my points just ask.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 06:44:15 PM by Chalenge »
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