Laser Blinds Missles

[SEseph]

I also can't get over the developer's name...   

http://news.discovery.com/tech/lasers-aircraft-heat-seeking-missiles.html#mkcpgn=msn1

[Pigslilspaz]

I also can't get over the developer's name...    

http://news.discovery.com/tech/lasers-aircraft-heat-seeking-missiles.html#mkcpgn=msn1

What does a name have to do with anything?

Also, I think it's a brilliant idea, although it brings up a question that once the initial ac breaks, would the missile reacquire a new heat source if there are other ac in the immediate area?

[tmetal]

As cool as that is, something is off in the article "Unlike most lasers, which emit only a single wavelength of light, the new infrared laser emits a multitude of wavelengths -- all in the infrared range."  A laser cannot emit more than one wavelength at a time. For any source of light (visable/non) to be classified as a laser the emitted radiation has to be all of these: coherent (in phase), unidirectional, and monochromatic (meaning one wavelenght).  Maybe it is just the laser tech in me and no one else will really care that much about it; but it sure irritates the hell out of me

Now that my rant is over; what a sweet peice of tech that is.  I sure hope it exceeds the expectations set before it.

[Vulcan]

Suddenly the gun package and maneuverability of the sukhoi's seem attractive again

[SEseph]

What does a name have to do with anything?

Also, I think it's a brilliant idea, although it brings up a question that once the initial ac breaks, would the missile reacquire a new heat source if there are other ac in the immediate area?

A former classmate of muslim faith sent me the artical. She thought the name was ironic and specifically pointed it out. She thought it humorus, so did I. If everyone laughed at themselves and others equally it would be a much better world. I was waiting for someone to puff up about that observation. 

The idea is awesome, but why tell everyone? Kinda shows the cards in your hand, or atleast a few. As for the wave length(s), my knowledge of lasers consists of it's how my DVD player works, that I can get my dog to run into a wall with a laser pointer and those are annoying as **** in a movie theater.

[Melvin]

I have to take issue with this device.

If I understand correctly, this device will point a laser (of unknown diameter) at the head of a moving missile. This will cause the missile's heat sensor to go bughouse, while the pilot of the targeted aircraft jinks out of the way. It sounds great in theory but.....

What size and type of radar will be mounted on a military helicopter that will not only locate the incoming missile, but also track the projectile so accurately as to allow for a laser (of unknown diameter) to hit the heat sensor with enough accuracy to "blind" it?

It also occurs to me that most SAM engagements upon helicopters in a combat zone would happen at relatively short distances. Such as when flairing for drop off, or orbiting the target area in the case of gunships. This would make reaction to such a threat rather difficult. As it stands now, I understand that our guys and gals kick out flares and do the old "shuck and jive". Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. (Have we lost any choppers to heat seeking SAM's in recent history? I don't know.)

Anyhow, I'm not an expert on lasers or helicopters. I do find this topic rather amazing though. If there are any experts out there, I'd love to be enlightened. And please, don't mis-understand......whatever they can do to keep our kids safe is a great thing.

<S> Melvin

[Melvin]

O.K., I've thought a little more about this. Apparently this laser device could also be used to look for contraband over a wide swath of area. This leads me to believe that it is, in fact, not a pinpoint device. Rather, it seems to me that it would be used more as a type of area denial counter-measure. If this is the case then I could see them having several of these devices fixed to various locations on an aircraft, thereby filling large sections of sky with the laser's signature at all times. (Eliminating the need for tracking radar.)

Now a question for the laser heads.

Is there a distance at which a laser's frequency begins to elongate? (Thus making it less effective.)

I always understood that lasers run a rather narrow beam (for lack of a better word). Is it possible to produce a laser with "spread" (again, lack of words).

And if so, what kind of angles would we be dealing with?

<S> Melvin

[SgtPappy]

Suddenly the gun package and maneuverability of the sukhoi's seem attractive again

+1 

Dogfighting anyone?

Also, there is a possibility that this new laser system will not be firing one wavelength of amplified photon energy, but will fire separate wavelengths as a function of time; the time intervals being in the magnitude of nanoseconds.

One must remember that laser light is electromagnetic radiation. Well guess what, so is radar. Of course there are a great many things that make the two different, but both are types of IR wavelengths. If something like the F-22's APG-77 radar system can fire multiple search 'beams' in many directions and wavelengths as a function of time, then maybe this new laser system can do the same.

[tmetal]

for Melvin- Distance doesn't really mess with wavelength. Wind can have an effect on wavelength i.e. doppler effect, but it is very small.  The biggest effects to a laser beam is the medium it is traveling in - open, clean air or vaccum, or water, or glass, etc all this will have different effects on the distance and power of a laser signal.  As far as the diameter of a beam goes there are many ways to change this using different optics (mirrors,lenses, etc)  For example the laser range finders I use to build for the Army would have a beam diameter at the device of about 1.5cm but once that beam got out to 200yds the diameter was about 3ft.  For this particular use I would venture the guess that they will use an optical multiplexer right after the output of the actual laser, then several lenses to diverge the beam followed shortly there after with an aiming mirror for directing the outgoing beam, of of this will be incased in the device the size of the dvvd player mentioned in the article. (exept maybe the directing mirror) I don't think they would leave the lasers on during the entire flight as that would just be a huge signal flare for anyone observing through IR optics.  

I hope I did a good enough job with the answers for ya Melvin

Vulcan - I get what your saying about the multiple wavelengths over time, and there are lasers that can pull off multiple wavelenghts out of the same lasing medium (argon ion for example).  I think I just read then interpreted the article as saying multiple wavelenghts at the same time. I guess thats what I get for assuming.   That being said, Radar  is more like a flashlight than a laser.  Radar can emit multiple wavelenghts at a time with ease just like a flashlight emiting white light.  A laser can only lase one wavelenght at a time.  If someone where to make a laser that can emit more than one wavelength at a time, I either want the same special set of physics laws they get  or they just made a really expensive flashlight.

[Melvin]

tmetal,
If I understand this correctly, the laser emitted by a rangefinder would scatter to about 3ft. at 200 yards due to having a longer frequency. Correct?

Could a person "blind" a heat seeking sensor with such a weak beam? (Am I way off here?)

Or, would it take a more concentrated waveform? ( By this I mean a shorter, more powerful frequency which would produce a more concentrated and narrow "beam".)

Ugh, I'm in over my head and it's late.

One more question.... What kind of batteries would this thing require?

<S> SgtPappy and tmetal.

[bozon]

The idea is awesome, but why tell everyone? Kinda shows the cards in your hand, or atleast a few.

It probably means that they couldn't convince anyone to buy it before and they need to sell it. If they are looking for foreign buyers the information will be public anyway. The other aspect is that similar systems are in use for years, at least by some air forces not belonging to the US.

tmetal,
If I understand this correctly, the laser emitted by a rangefinder would scatter to about 3ft. at 200 yards due to having a longer frequency. Correct?
Could a person "blind" a heat seeking sensor with such a weak beam? (Am I way off here?)
Or, would it take a more concentrated waveform? ( By this I mean a shorter, more powerful frequency which would produce a more concentrated and narrow "beam".)

The beam spread is not because of the frequency (directly). It is more of a collimation issue and it is impossible to produce a perfect plane-wave laser (that does not disperse). In this particular case, some spread of the beam is desirable as it makes "hitting" the missile easier.
IR sensors are very sensitive - remember that they detect radiation that is emitted from everything including the missile and detector themselves. This is why they need shielding and cooling so they do not outshine the target by their own signal. It is easy to saturate such detectors especially if they are not built to handle a large dynamic range of signals. This is why multiple wavelengths are required because there will be a filter in front of the detector and unless you know exactly what wavelengths it passes and match your laser to that, you will have little to no effect on the detector.

[tmetal]

Bozon explained it pretty well for ya Melvin.  Wavelenth does not have a big effect on beam divergence until you start to cross into and out of multiple mediums. (shooting your beam through air then glass then air then water, and so on)  Think about the divergence like this - the laser is a water hose with one of those adjustable nozzles on the end, the water coming out is the wavelenth and the nozzle is the laser optics used to change the divergence, no matter how you adjust the nozzle and mess with the angle of the spray of water it is still just water coming out right?  Same with a laser, you can diverge or focus the output with the correct optics all without changing the wavelenght. 
The power source will surely be provided my the aircraft itself, so I guess my earlier statement about the power used for prolonged use would be a problem is a null issue.  That said, most IR lasers that can fit into a package the size of a dvd player will not be "on" all the time due to heat issues and will most likely be pulsed lasers.  The laser I built for those rangefinders was about the size of a snickers bar, but once you added the turning optics, power supply, and device output lens the whole thing was about the size of a portable dvd player, that was then put into a larger weapons system fielded on humvees.
Blinding the missle will be related to the power output of the laser vs the projected area of the output beam.  For example you have two flashlights both putting out white light, one is a cheapo flashlight you got from wal-mart and the other is a search and rescue grade spotlight, they both are projecting a 5ft diameter circle on a wall which one will leave you seeing spots for a week if you stand in front of it?

[Tac]

O.K., I've thought a little more about this. Apparently this laser device could also be used to look for contraband over a wide swath of area. This leads me to believe that it is, in fact, not a pinpoint device. Rather, it seems to me that it would be used more as a type of area denial counter-measure. If this is the case then I could see them having several of these devices fixed to various locations on an aircraft, thereby filling large sections of sky with the laser's signature at all times. (Eliminating the need for tracking radar.)

Now a question for the laser heads.

Is there a distance at which a laser's frequency begins to elongate? (Thus making it less effective.)

I always understood that lasers run a rather narrow beam (for lack of a better word). Is it possible to produce a laser with "spread" (again, lack of words).

And if so, what kind of angles would we be dealing with?

<S> Melvin

It must be an area denial system by default .. otherwise you'd need a very sophisticated and powerful sensor/tracking system to 'aim' a lil laser to the head of the missile.. almost impossible really. Plus, the article said it has no moving parts.

AKA, its likely something they'll put on the rear of the aircraft that has the same effect as headlights have on deer... but on a missile.

As for it saying 'multiple wavelengths at the same time' .. well, yes a laser cant do that but it can switch frequencies very rapidly. The article didnt specifically say its ONE laser emitter so most likely its a thousand or so emitters packaged so that it emits the beams in a cone shape to the rear of the craft, each emitter switching frequencies in the IR range extremely fast.

In short, im betting it works like a strobe laser. A missile's heat seeking sensor is no different than the human eye.. just like strobes disorient us by overloading our capability to process the change in light, the strobe effect of that laser would confuse the heck of a heat seeker even more because the heat seeker would end up seeing the heat source its programmed to hit all over the sky.

It'd be funny to see a missile suddenly start behaving like a dog chasing its own tail 

[Penguin]

It must be an area denial system by default .. otherwise you'd need a very sophisticated and powerful sensor/tracking system to 'aim' a lil laser to the head of the missile.. almost impossible really. Plus, the article said it has no moving parts.

AKA, its likely something they'll put on the rear of the aircraft that has the same effect as headlights have on deer... but on a missile.

As for it saying 'multiple wavelengths at the same time' .. well, yes a laser cant do that but it can switch frequencies very rapidly. The article didnt specifically say its ONE laser emitter so most likely its a thousand or so emitters packaged so that it emits the beams in a cone shape to the rear of the craft, each emitter switching frequencies in the IR range extremely fast.

In short, im betting it works like a strobe laser. A missile's heat seeking sensor is no different than the human eye.. just like strobes disorient us by overloading our capability to process the change in light, the strobe effect of that laser would confuse the heck of a heat seeker even more because the heat seeker would end up seeing the heat source its programmed to hit all over the sky.

It'd be funny to see a missile suddenly start behaving like a dog chasing its own tail 

This happened to submariners with torpedoes, it came back, just a like a boomerang, except there was more boom.

-Penguin