Author Topic: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?  (Read 2706 times)

Offline Perrine

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I wonder why US air force did not just borrow thousands of mosquito bombers to bomb germany in daylight?  I think if US used mosquito bombers casualties to american airmen would have been less than triple digits.

I think the aircrew survivability would be high and effectiveness against strategic targets would be the same as flying b17/b24 since US bomber crew would use the ultra top secret norden bombsight.

Also, in real life I doubt germany had any mass produced interceptors that can intercept 1000+ mosquitos besides the limited me 163 and 262.


Offline Guppy35

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2010, 10:32:22 PM »
Probably because there was not enough production to do so and then some.  Considering what was coming off the line on US production lines and all the contracts to fill, switching over to Mossies by license on the fly would have been tough.
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Offline Bubbajj

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2010, 11:54:46 PM »
Another thing I would wonder is what were the losses to ack as opposed to losses from enemy fighter action. One must also ask if a damaged mosquito is as survivable as a damaged heavy bomber of any type.

Offline vonKrimm

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2010, 01:16:01 AM »
Well, the USAF did: the B-58 'Hustler'.  The US Army Air Corp bomber force was was restricted as Guppy35 said:
Probably because there was not enough production to do so and then some.  Considering what was coming off the line on US production lines and all the contracts to fill, switching over to Mossies by license on the fly would have been tough.


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Offline Scherf

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2010, 01:41:43 AM »
(in reply to babaji)

Which bombers? XVIs or the whole inventory? Day? Night? Both?

Can give rough estimates if you like.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 01:44:17 AM by Scherf »
... missions were to be met by the commitment of alerted swarms of fighters, composed of Me 109's and Fw 190's, that were strategically based to protect industrial installations. The inferior capabilities of these fighters against the Mosquitoes made this a hopeless and uneconomical effort. 1.JD KTB

Offline mbailey

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2010, 04:30:29 AM »
I would think Guppy hit the nail on the head, and i also think bomb load would have alot to do with it
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2010, 06:07:12 AM »
The USA did look at producing the Mosquito but I forget the reason why it did not do so.

If Canada could produce 6710 Mosquitoes during the war, can you imagine how many the Americans could have produced? One problem would have been engines though, as Packard Merlins were needed for the P-51.

Perrine, much is made of the Norden bombsight but both the Germans and the British had bombsights just as good.

mbailey, the typical bomb load of American heavies was 4-5000lb.  Two Mosquitoes fitted with the Avro carrier could carry 6000lb of bombs. If the American heavy is shot down there is no bombs on target. If one of the Mosquitoes is shot down, there is still 3000lb of bombs on target.

Offline CAP1

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2010, 08:08:30 AM »
i would imagine survivability had a large part to play.

 although the AAF suffered incredible losses during the war over europe, there were also a lot of aircraft that brought their crews back home, and did so in such condition as they shouldn't have been able to maintain flight.

 it actually took a bit to shoot down b17's, and in all obviousness, it wasn't the easiest thing in the world to do....especially if you condiser the formations they flew. most attackers had 6+ guns firing at them regardless of angle. often times more.

 i know you're about to try to say that the interceptors would never catch the mossies.......but you would be very wrong.
all that would have been required for them to catch them, would be to be at altitude before the buffs get to their interception point(as they often were anyway). then it would be a matter of diving on them, take the shot, rinse, and repeat. this would have been devastating to the mossies, as the bomber version was(i think) undefended?
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2010, 09:06:13 AM »
Without escorts the heavies were sitting ducks. Remember Schweinfurt and Regensburg.

The Mossie had a cruising speed over 100mph faster than the heavies. The Germans had all the time to set up the interception of the heavies but with the Mossie, as history tells, the Germans had a hard time intercepting Mossies. Mossies would not be in large bomber streams as the heavies were, but would operate like the British heavies at night. That is as individual squadrons. It would be hard for the Germans to concentrate fighters for attacks on the Mossies with Mossie formations spread all over the map unlike American heavies which were all bunched together.

Offline Baumer

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2010, 10:50:34 AM »
I think there are a couple of points that are not being look at thoroughly enough in this discussion.

1.) I think that everyone is overestimating the accuracy of strategic high altitude bombing. The USAAF post war strategic bombing survey showed that accuracy during the war was vastly over rated.

2.) I think the effectiveness of German AAA is vastly underrated, again according to the USAAF statistics half the heavy bomber losses were due to AAA. With radar guided proximity fuse's this danger wouldn't have diminished for the mosquito.

3.) Given the complexities of manufacturing a wooden aircraft it would have been a substantial change to the US aircraft manufacturing industry to switch to the Mosquito.

4.) The number of Mosquitoes would have been double what was required for the heavy bombers. This isn't due to bomb load, this is due to manufacturing demand for spare parts and airframes to keep the number flying correct. So lets assume a 1.5 multiplier to carry the equivalent bomb-load as the heavy bombers with an additional multiplier for spares and repair parts.


While we may be enamored with the performance of the new Mosquito in AH (and it did have extraordinary performance historically) there are many factors that weigh against it being used as the primary strategic bombing platform for the US during WW2.
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Offline Die Hard

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2010, 02:04:54 PM »
The problem of changing one aspect of a conflict and extrapolating the effects is that you also have to factor in the enemy's reaction to that change. If the Allied air campaign over Europe was fought mostly by large numbers of fast unarmed bombers like the Mossie it is likely the German aircraft designers would have developed their interceptors to meet that threat. Instead of adding armor and heavy guns, they would have focused on speed and endurance. A large part of the Mossie's success stems from the Luftwaffe primarily using aircraft and tactics designed to meet the threat of slower heavy-bombers. Without the heavy-bombers for the Luftwaffe to concentrate on I think the Mossie would have had a hard time over Germany.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2010, 02:07:51 PM by Die Hard »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2010, 02:13:45 PM »
didn't heinkel also have a jet powered fighter, that could've entered combat many years before the messerschmitt?
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Offline bozon

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2010, 02:22:38 PM »
1.) I think that everyone is overestimating the accuracy of strategic high altitude bombing. The USAAF post war strategic bombing survey showed that accuracy during the war was vastly over rated.

2.) I think the effectiveness of German AAA is vastly underrated, again according to the USAAF statistics half the heavy bomber losses were due to AAA. With radar guided proximity fuse's this danger wouldn't have diminished for the mosquito.

4.) The number of Mosquitoes would have been double what was required for the heavy bombers. This isn't due to bomb load, this is due to manufacturing demand for spare parts and airframes to keep the number flying correct. So lets assume a 1.5 multiplier to carry the equivalent bomb-load as the heavy bombers with an additional multiplier for spares and repair parts.
1. I totally agree, no matter what plane was used, the actual effect on the war would not have changed. The effect on casualties and costs on the other hand...

2. Smaller plane is less likely to be hit by AAA and generally it is harder to hit a faster moving target, but much more important - the time spent in AAA is significantly lowered. AAA avoidance is a big argument favoring the mosquito in daytime.

4. The major complexity and cost in maintnance comes from the engines. So roughly one 4-engine bomber is roughly similar to a pair of 2-engine bomber. The total number of crew in a mosquito is less than half that of a B17. The cost in fuel per lb. explosive delivered is better. In all efficiency parameters the mosquito was superior by a large margin. The whole development of the mossie and the idea to remove all defensive armament was driven by pure efficiency calculations (extensively described in Sharp & Bowyer).

i know you're about to try to say that the interceptors would never catch the mossies.......but you would be very wrong.
all that would have been required for them to catch them, would be to be at altitude before the buffs get to their interception point(as they often were anyway). then it would be a matter of diving on them, take the shot, rinse, and repeat. this would have been devastating to the mossies, as the bomber version was(i think) undefended?
Catching the mosquitoes with fighter marginally faster requires a very careful setup and accurate guidance to intercept. Any interference (escorts and forward fighter sweeps) would ruin any carefully prepared defense. By not relying on massive boxes for defense, the mosquito raids can be in several waves not letting the defenders time to refuel and reorganize after the previous wave - especially if their total numbers were higher than the B17 (~twice?) it would overwhelm the defenders. As someone mentioned above, destroying one mosquito allows the other to reach the target - half a B17 is not going anywhere. In any environment that involves clouds, a single mosquito has a far better chance to escape enemy fighters than a single B17 with all its useless guns, by diving into the clouds.
Finally, for casualty calculations, in terms of crew, a loss of a B17 equals five mosquitoes.

I guess that the real reason mosquitoes (or similar) were not used by the 8th is that A) American industry was not as adept as the British one in woodworks, but the could be overcome. B) Would the US fight its war with a non American main bomber. Can anyone even imagine that? and C) Not enough people believed it would work just because it was a new and radical concept. Remember that even for the RAF it took a lot of time to digest what De-Havilland was trying to sell them.
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2010, 02:32:33 PM »
didn't heinkel also have a jet powered fighter, that could've entered combat many years before the messerschmitt?

No, as the engine was not fully developed. At the same time, the British also had jet powered fighter.

Offline Karnak

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Re: What if the US air force used mosquito bombers to bomb germany instead?
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2010, 03:26:03 PM »
While I am an advocate of the Mosquito in general, one downside to this proposal would be that it would have a far lower impact on the Luftwaffe.  It would leave a lot more of the Luftwaffe for the VVS to deal with as for many Luftwaffe fighters a Mosquito was practically uninterceptable.  B-17s and B-24s were able to be used as very effective bait to pull the Luftwaffe up where it could be engaged and destroyed and I am not sure twenty thousand Mosquitoes would have the same effect.

It also would have pushed the Germans into developing faster interceptors (the prior mentioned Heinkel jet was, as I recall, not any faster than a Bf109G-10) which may have been an issue for the undefended Mosquitoes.  That said, not being locked into formations does open up a lot of options that slow, heavy bombers relying on turrets would not have.
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