Author Topic: reversal  (Read 1472 times)

Offline JC67

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reversal
« on: September 20, 2010, 01:01:59 AM »
how does one go about doing a quick reversal. like going up and reversing quickly to get back down on your target? is it all in the rudder or exactly what needs to happen to pull it off? thx for any help


You cant shoot anyone down if you aint in the air.
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Offline uptown

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Re: reversal
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2010, 07:55:49 AM »
I believe what you're talking about is a "rope" if I understand you correctly. The trick is judging the cons E against your own and timing it so that as he begins to stall as you're on the way down with him in your guns. Hanging on the prop and hitting a notch or two of flaps at the top will get you over quickly but pull the flaps back in as you're going down and use the rudder to line your nose on the target. That's pretty standard stuff really I think. When I hear the word "reversal" I think about how to get quickly turned around before a better turning con can. That IMO is all about timing and the speed that each plane is going at the time of the merge. A plane at 250 will turn quicker then one going 400 for instance.
You have some pretty awesome sticks in your squad so maybe some of them can work with you and explain it better then i did. Good hunting.  :salute

Lighten up Francis

Offline Dawger

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Re: reversal
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2010, 08:36:07 AM »
A reversal is converting from defense to offense. A reversal of roles.

What the OP is referring to is a stall turn at the top of a vertical extension in order to get a guns solution on a pursuer.

Its a good way to get killed in a multi bandit environment as you are very far below minimum vertical maneuvering speed. Best reserved for dueling or other tightly controlled circumstances.

Offline Patches1

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Re: reversal
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2010, 12:00:23 PM »
<S> Dawger!

I was once a student of yours in another Sim. It's good to see you here, Sir!
"We're surrounded. That simplifies the problem."- Lewis B. "Chesty" Puller, General, USMC

Offline Mace2004

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Re: reversal
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2010, 11:12:48 PM »
Reversal has three meanings.  Yes, it can mean a reversal of roles, i.e., from defensive to offensive but there is also the reversal of direction and of turn.  Turning a left turn into a right turn is a simple turn reversal.  For instance, you're in a left turn into a bandit to force a flight path overshoot.  When the overshoot happens you reverse to a right turn into him.  This may, or may not, result in a role reversal.  In a directional reversal you're actually characterizing the intent and nature of the turn and implies the quickest possible change of direction related to tactical needs.  For instance, you extend and accelerate to gain some separation then reverse (also called pitchback) to bring your nose on to the nme.  The most efficient way to do this is usually a high-G wingover to minimize your turn radius and regain lost E after the turn.  The OP is specifically talking about a vertical reversal which is a reversal of direction done in the vertical (duhhh  :D) and a vertical reversal can also be a rudder reversal.  While this can be related to a rope, that certainly isn't the only time it's used.

The best procedure for the vertical reversal varies according to the airplane and the specific tactical situation.  The position of the target (i.e, offset) and distance are considerations.  If the target is directly below you, turn radius becomes important and you want to minimize it so you can come straight down on him.   If he's directly below you have to be slow (probably less than 100mph in most airplanes) then stuff in a bootfull of rudder to yaw the plane over.  This is a rudder reversal. If the bandit is offset from you and you have the speed sometimes it's best to just drop the flaps and pull the nose over.

If you're going to do a rudder reversal you have to know your aircraft's torque characteristics.  For instance, in an F4U you have lots of torque that makes it hard to go right so you should go left using left rudder.  This gives you both rudder and torque working for you to bring the nose around.  You can sometimes plan for this by offsetting a bit to the right and keeping your target a bit to the left as you go vertical so the left reversal works from a geometry standpoint.  If you must go right then pull your throttle back to about 1/2 to 3/4 to reduce the torque effects then use the rudder. Most airplanes in AH will have a pronounced roll associated with the yaw.  This is true also in RL but is a bit worse in AH because of combat trim which wants to pull your nose "up" at slow speeds.  It's usually not a big deal and you can just let the airplane do it's thing but sometimes a bit of forward stick helps if the airplane tries to just flop over on it's back.  Also, after the reversal, as the nose comes down most planes usually aren't polite enough to just point straight down right away and will wander around a bit, especially if you're really slow (these motions are called post-stall gyrations) so be prepared to use control inputs (usually forward stick and opposite rudder) to regain control and get the nose pointed where you want it.

The best way to learn what works best for a particular ride is in the offline mode or in the TA where you can practice it.  Ask for tips for a specific plane (they're all different) and you'll find that there are usually several preferred pilot techniques.  What works best for one pilot may not be best for another.  Try out different speeds, yaw direction, throttle settings, and amount of control inputs required.  Keep in mind the goal is to get the airplane to swap ends as quickly as possible and point it at something.

Also, Dawger's correct about the use of a vertical reversal in a multi-bandit environment.  In RL going pure vertical and getting slow at the top is sometimes called "a bandit gathering turn" as all the bad guys will see you as a slow target and head your way so use it judiciously if you don't want to become a pincushion.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2010, 12:50:01 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF

                                                                                          

Offline JC67

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Re: reversal
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2010, 11:51:09 PM »
thank you very much, i know what to work on now :salute


You cant shoot anyone down if you aint in the air.
Ava Arena JC67-36th\ FIGHTER SQ Flying Fiends

Offline Dichotomy

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Re: reversal
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2010, 07:41:56 AM »
very nice writeup Mace... explains something that has befuddled me for years  :aok
JG11 - Dicho37Only The Proud Only The Strong AH Players who've passed on :salute

Offline TnDep

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Re: reversal
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2010, 03:29:51 PM »
http://www.mediafire.com/?bxc5pn671bzicvi

duel full of the reversals you are mentioning enjoy
~XO Top Gun~ Retired
When you think you know it all, someone almost always proves you wrong.  Always strive to be better then who you are as a person, a believer, a husband, a father, and a friend.  May peace be in your life and God Bless - TnDep

Offline JC67

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Re: reversal
« Reply #8 on: September 21, 2010, 04:35:59 PM »
thx TnDep


You cant shoot anyone down if you aint in the air.
Ava Arena JC67-36th\ FIGHTER SQ Flying Fiends

Offline Florian

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Re: reversal
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2010, 05:19:33 PM »
Thanks Mace, that was most helpfull... if only I can apply it!

Offline lulu

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Re: reversal
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2010, 07:45:32 AM »
Joystick behavior is 70% in ah

 :salute

mobilis in mobile

Offline sunfan1121

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Re: reversal
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2010, 01:11:02 PM »
A drunk driver will run a stop sign. A stoned driver will stop until it turns green.

Offline TnDep

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Re: reversal
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2010, 12:05:40 PM »
heres you one jc where I was at the disadvantage and reversed it for the kill

http://www.mediafire.com/?cywfd527pz5if55
~XO Top Gun~ Retired
When you think you know it all, someone almost always proves you wrong.  Always strive to be better then who you are as a person, a believer, a husband, a father, and a friend.  May peace be in your life and God Bless - TnDep

Offline JC67

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Re: reversal
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2010, 12:24:48 PM »
Cool  thx for the input guys..now if i can only put the new knowledge to work  :noid


You cant shoot anyone down if you aint in the air.
Ava Arena JC67-36th\ FIGHTER SQ Flying Fiends

Offline Mace2004

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Re: reversal
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2010, 11:23:48 AM »
Unfortunately, none of the other videos show a vertical reversal.  TnDep posted a nice film of a rolling scissors with some degree of a rudder roll at the top, these are not reversals.  Sunfan1121 posts some nice films of role reversals (note role, verses roll) facilitated by turn reversals (i.e., right turn to force overshoot followed by a quick roll into a left turn, essentially flat and vertical scissors).

This one: http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/mace/vertical%20reversal_0547.ahf has an actual vertical reversal (or rudder reversal) at the top when I'm below 100mph.  It's best if you view this with the film viewer set to "Fixed," "Pan," and "trails" turned on.  Use your keypad to pan the views around (if you don't like the beeping make sure Num Lock is off).  This is the best way to see the actual maneuvers and effect they have on relative flight paths. I included a bit more than just the vertical reversal so you can see the difference in flight paths between the vertical reversal and a simple loop over the top.  

At the start, the Ki61 pulls vertical into my diving attack so I simply come off and loop over to attack him as he puts his nose back down.  Notice my speed doing this never drops below about 150. The time elapsed from when I'm straight up to straight down (i.e., a complete 180 degrees of turn) is about 10 seconds and the loop creates quite a bit of offset from my flightpath going up due to my turn radius.  

At time 1+00 I'm going pure vertical.  I started this in an attempt to rope the Ki but he sees the other friendly fighter and doesn't bite.  I continue the extension to give a bit of time so I could see the results of the other fighter's attack and follow it by a rudder reversal as my speed drops below 80.  From the beginning of the reversal to straight down is about 8 seconds so it's a little faster than a loop and my speed drops to around 40.  Actually, it's lots faster than if I tried to just pull the nose over at such a slow speed. 

Notice the very small separation between my flight path going up and then coming down, this is one of the key features of a vertical reversal.  There are a couple of other things to see.  First, during the vertical extension, you can see me put in some forward stick (called "bunting") to stay in the pure vertical otherwise wing lift and CT will cause me to arc over on my back.  (You can see this best with the view settings I mentioned at look at the aircraft directly from the side) Next, I use full right rudder to bring the nose around and you can see the natural tendency of the plane to also roll right due to dihedral effect.  I counter this just a bit with a little left stick but I essentially let the plane do what it wants and correct my roll position while accelerating downhill.

After the vertical reversal is another loop for comparison again.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2010, 11:27:33 AM by Mace2004 »
Mace
Golden Gryphon Guild Mercenary Force G3-MF