Author Topic: Sorry to be negative ...  (Read 2015 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #45 on: October 07, 2010, 03:33:04 PM »
^^^^ What Oldman said.......

Last night I was able to wrangle Oldman into a turnfight, me in 109 and he in 47. Let me tell you, in the hands of a good stick the 47 will turn with the 109 all day. (Saw it with my own eyes.)

Another thing that I saw with my own eyes, is the ability for a 38 to be a deadly bird to the hapless 109 jock that takes them for granted. (Just ask any of those fork-tailed devil drivers. Oh wait, i guess that's what's happening here.)

Furthermore, I rarely flew the P-40 before I was forced to in the AvA. (Side balancing is a good thing.) What I found was a big, beautiful 109 killer. I enjoyed a higher than expected level of success on the deck. ( Considering my limited skills.) Those 50's rip heck outta anything they touch. (Watch the convergance.... I found it very crucial to get that right.) Big 'ol engine, tons of guns and hard to knock down.....I love it.

I understand that these are mere antectdotes from a noob with a limited skillset, but I'm just calling it the way I saw it. Have fun and  :cheers:

<S> Melvin

i've never flown a pee47, so i can't comment on that part.......although i do know that anything can be made to turn well if flown properly. that's why i told sd to get with mace and/or rodent.....to help him learn it.

as for the rest of what you said....you're spot on , :aok
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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #46 on: October 07, 2010, 03:54:48 PM »
Rufe:  Don't forget that you can grab a skin that doesn't have invasion stripes for nearly any US plane.
And I did.  Axis seem to have better camo, which makes sense as, historically, shiny Allied planes were strafing the heck out of them.

I hate to put a gamey thought out there, but can't an individual disable other players skins, making them default?

Last night I was able to wrangle Oldman into a turnfight, me in 109 and he in 47. Let me tell you, in the hands of a good stick the 47 will turn with the 109 all day. (Saw it with my own eyes.)
The advantage of the 109 is not turning.  It has small size and excellent acceleration.  Given that being low makes acquiring a visual on higher targets much easier, acceleration (or the ability to gain and maintain energy) is huge. 

A "good stick" 109 guy will get the 47 down low and slow, extend out, pick up energy and work the jug into a stall, or run him down.  The 47 would be left with snap shots at a zooming 109.   Effective, but dull.

US planes, for the most part, don't accelerate as well as the German planes, are bigger (easier to see) and have less effective camo options.
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Offline Shifty

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #47 on: October 07, 2010, 03:57:31 PM »
I've seen a few guys that can make a P-47 dance. Shane used to then again Shane used to get the most out of anything he flew. I got in a good fight with Oldman a few months ago I was in a P-47D11 I believe he was in a 109G2. I fought him as hard as I could and was close to putting the bird in the dirt to force an overshoot. He never fell for it and ended up winning. Then I came up against Bug twice while he was in a 109 and got spanked instantly. Considering the alt most of the fights take place in the AVA if your in a P-47 it helps to see the enemy first or have a wingman... At least at my skill level.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #48 on: October 07, 2010, 08:27:27 PM »
And I did.  Axis seem to have better camo, which makes sense as, historically, shiny Allied planes were strafing the heck out of them.

I hate to put a gamey thought out there, but can't an individual disable other players skins, making them default?
The advantage of the 109 is not turning.  It has small size and excellent acceleration.  Given that being low makes acquiring a visual on higher targets much easier, acceleration (or the ability to gain and maintain energy) is huge. 

A "good stick" 109 guy will get the 47 down low and slow, extend out, pick up energy and work the jug into a stall, or run him down.  The 47 would be left with snap shots at a zooming 109.   Effective, but dull.

US planes, for the most part, don't accelerate as well as the German planes, are bigger (easier to see) and have less effective camo options.

i think that early in the war, USAAF aircraft were painted olive drab. the british versions had camo. it was later in the war when we decided to leave them in the metal finish.

that small size and light weight of the 109 can be used against it just as easily as its pile-it can use it in his favor.

remember, p-factor, and engine torque are modeled fairly nicely in here.

 i've not flown the 109 enough to know how to use it in my favor, but the pee40 has given me a couple of nice shots, thanks to engine torque rolling me more rapidly than the controls could at those particular moments.......

in fact.....look at the pic below.....


 i nearly got a shot on that 109. it was dichotomy, trying to be sneeky.  :devil i had just popped a 190, and was stalling. i firewalled the throttle, and the torque put me here, rather than giving him a nice easy shot at me.  :devil
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2010, 07:51:34 AM »
I understand that these are mere antectdotes from a noob with a limited skillset


Right.  Melvin, I believe it's still true that I have never shot you down in all of our encounters.

- oldman

Offline JHerne

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #50 on: October 08, 2010, 08:50:24 AM »
The standard color scheme for US Fighters was olive drab over neutral gray. This was considered my most to be the most effective overall camouflage color since no one could guarantee what type of terrain these aircraft would operate over. OD in the South Pacific was effective at low levels, over Italy, not so much.

The US switch from OD to natural metal came about as a result of three things happening - pilots learning that aircraft stripped of paint and polished were faster, the overall high altitude in which escorts were operating, and the overall air superiority the Allies achieved shortly after D-Day. That's not to say that the Luftwaffe rolled over on its back and wet the floor, quite the contrary. But with the exception of Bodenplatte at the end of the year, the Luftwaffe never really mounted large-scale offensive operations against the Allies.

Fighter camo in the desert regions was largely based on RAF doctrine of Dark Earth and Midstone over Sky Type S or Duck Egg Blue. Remember too, that many of the P-40s that were rushed to North Africa for the Torch Landings were originally intended to go to the RAF. I have photos somewhere showing P-40s on the assembly line with RAF markings being painted out with a star and roundel.

D-Day stripes were an anomaly - they were intended to be temporary. Most squadrons, especially those involved in escort and fighter sweep duties, lost their stripes with a few months of the order. Some retained them longer. A few removed the stripes on the upper sides and kept them on the bottom, since the Allies now had a large ground contingent on the Continent. Prior to that, getting shot at by your own flak wasn't a big deal - there was none prior to the invasion.

Overall, the Luftwaffe exercised very little control over the use of camouflage on its aircraft, especially day fighters. That's why I have 4 or 5 books on US camo doctrine and more than 60 on Luftwaffe colors in my library! Luftwaffe camouflage practices are a science within itself, especially when you start looking at the 1944-45 period of time when RLM 80, 81, and 82 were introduced, and the subsequent usage of those colors in conjunction with the earlier RLM 74, 75 colors.

Luftwaffe desert camo is surprisingly a bit more simple. When JG27 arrived in North Africa, they actually painted out their 109s in Italian stocks, as RLM 79 hadn't been delivered to the front. In most cases, you'll see JG27 aircraft carrying a motte pattern of RLM 71 or RLM 02 over Italian Sand, a few months later, photos will show these same aircraft carrying RLM 71 or 02 over RLM 79. Unlike their Regia Aeronautica allies, German camo patterns ranged from overall sand, to motte (soft spots), waves, and splinter patterns.

J
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #51 on: October 08, 2010, 09:48:30 AM »
JHerne, have you ever considered getting into the skinning business.  With your history and modeling background, it would seem to be an easy accomplishment for you (if you have the time available).  Just a thought.  :salute



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Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #52 on: October 08, 2010, 10:24:05 AM »
The US switch from OD to natural metal came about as a result of three things happening - pilots learning that aircraft stripped of paint and polished were faster, the overall high altitude in which escorts were operating, and the overall air superiority the Allies achieved shortly after D-Day.
:salute

A great thing about these forums is that there are a lot of history enthusiasts.  Good stuff.

High altitude is a disadvantage when searching the sky for dots in a no icon environment.  Overall air superiority is not (and shouldn't be) modeled in the AvA, or any AH arena for that matter.  Two of three reasons from real life do not apply in the game.

JHerne, have you ever considered getting into the skinning business.  With your history and modeling background, it would seem to be an easy accomplishment for you (if you have the time available).  Just a thought.  :salute
I've said it before and I'll say it again: AH skinners are artists. 

I often go F3, F8 mode on the ground and do a 360 around my plane, zooming in and out.  It is not unusual to pick a plane based on the paint job.  Both P-40's in AVG markings have the cool teeth.
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #53 on: October 08, 2010, 10:37:45 AM »
Actually Puma, I did a couple awhile ago that I never finished...

Someone asked for a P-38L in OD. I managed to find one and started it...



Then I was asked to do a skin of a P-47...



I did my own version of BigAssBirdII, but someone ended up doing a better version so I dropped it...



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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2010, 11:29:04 AM »
High altitude is a disadvantage when searching the sky for dots in a no icon environment. 
I disagree Rufus, but then I haven't spent as much time in there as you have recently. As it is, it generally takes me a good hour to get re-accustomed to the settings and I get "surprised" a lot in that time. But I mostly operate between 5k and 7k alt unless I start seeing people higher. I use the rudder when checking my six high or low and it's a very rare occasion when someone can climb up from my low six without me knowing they were there, usually happens when I'm focused on acquiring a target.


The only time a low dot gets lost is when it's below 2k and running over trees, even then unless it's not getting rendered at all on my screen, something about the association with the default skin makes some dots easier to spot even over the ground clutter. It's one of those little things that makes you rub your eyes, clean your monitor, then do a double take...but it is noticeable.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Sorry to be negative ...
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2010, 11:32:27 AM »
I disagree Rufus, but then I haven't spent as much time in there as you have recently. As it is, it generally takes me a good hour to get re-accustomed to the settings and I get "surprised" a lot in that time. But I mostly operate between 5k and 7k alt unless I start seeing people higher. I use the rudder when checking my six high or low and it's a very rare occasion when someone can climb up from my low six without me knowing they were there, usually happens when I'm focused on acquiring a target.


The only time a low dot gets lost is when it's below 2k and running over trees, even then unless it's not getting rendered at all on my screen, something about the association with the default skin makes some dots easier to spot even over the ground clutter. It's one of those little things that makes you rub your eyes, clean your monitor, then do a double take...but it is noticeable.

spotting anything co=alt is a thousand times easier than spotting them when looking down against the ground.

 up high, you can still see the dot about 5 miles out, just like you can in the other arenas....you just don't have that big neon sign yelling "here i am!!"
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