Gun control

[Masherbrum]

When you take a concealed carry class, they teach you to empty the gun into them. 1. So they die 2. So if they manage to get hold of the gun there arent any bullets left.

Emptying a handgun into a perp. can land you a charge for "Mayhem".   Whoever teaches that method, should not be allowed to Instruct.   It's just that simple.   

[Patches1]

.45 acp 230 grain full metal jacket round nose

let them bleed out

[Shuffler]

Here in the States, we had a 4 star General address the speaker of the house as Ma'ma, and she didn't like it at all.  It must be degrading, but what do I know?

You have to be a lady to appreciate being called ma'am. The speaker is no lady.



If you have to pull a gun be prepared to shoot. If you have to shoot then shoot to kill. Trying to wound someone can and will get you killed.

[Flench]

Well , If one brakes into my house on me , They would be looking at a 12 gauge with OO buckshot . So , I don't think one would have to worry about shooting again .

[Shuffler]

Well , If one brakes into my house on me , They would be looking a 12 gauge with OO buckshot . So , I don't think one would have to worry about shooting again .

You may be right but be prepared to just in case.

This is not aimed at you but some folks think a shotgun is be-all end-all. While it can and will make a mess, you still have to hit what you shoot at. Some have a false sense that ratcheting the shotgun will ward off a perp. What it usually does is alert the perp to your position which he may have covered.

[Flench]

I use to shoot trap for year's so I don't think I would miss in my case but you are right and some people don't need a gun at all . End up shooting there self , lol .

[Gman]

When you take a concealed carry class, they teach you to empty the gun into them. 1. So they die 2. So if they manage to get hold of the gun there aren't any bullets left.

That must be one of those State 2 hour courses taught by the local Sherrif's office that allow them to tick off the "proper training" box on the CCW application.

Any reputable CCW school will never teach you to empty your magazine into a target, unless the target you are engaging is continuing to close distance on you and isn't going down....this is usually because of missing the target, not the target being on some pyschostimulating drugs like hollywood always says.  You continue to fire on the threat until it isn't a threat, but for example if you had hit a target multiple times and he wasn't stopping your brain lightbulb should pop saying  "this guy has armour on" and you proceed to engage him with the BA drill (ie shooting him in a non armoured spot such as the head or the pelvis".

-Emptying magazine = likely not a good idea, however multiple displaced shots are often taught as being a sound tactic.  The old "double tap" is rarely taught anymore as the rounds hitting the same or near to the same location it's been proven that this does less damage and puts less stress on the targets Central Nervous System than having two shots hit farther apart...hence most schools teaching the "Vertical Track" style of defensive shooting in a 1 v 1 threat scenario.  This is usually when the first shot is fired right out of retention (holster) and then followed by 3-5 rounds being fired progressively higher and higher from the targets belt buckle to his head, usually taken 1 second or less for all rounds fired.   This is the only example I can think of that comes remotely close to "emptying the magazine" into a target, and it isn't even 1/3 of the way there for most capacities
for modern day semi autos.

Another reason emptying magazine is a bad choice is that the "one" threat you thought you had might have friends out there, and you just wasted needless rounds on contestant number one, and now you're going to have to either take a precious second or two to reload, if you even can, or fight them now with your defensive option #2 now that your weapon is smoking and locked open on an empty magazine, and that option 2 for most people is their hands and feet, which really suck in a 1 v 2 fight.

This is not aimed at you but some folks think a shotgun is be-all end-all. While it can and will make a mess, you still have to hit what you shoot at. Some have a false sense that ratcheting the shotgun will ward off a perp. What it usually does is alert the perp to your position which he may have covered.

X2 here.

A shotgun is the most "gross motor skill", meaning easy to use when the adrenalin has caused the blood to leave your fingertips in a gunfight, making small tactile things harder to do, but it is still something you should get professional training with, and practice often, as well as having a defence plan created for your living space.  Also, the ratcheting sound mentioned can not only give away your position, and can galvanize a threat into taking action, as in violent encounters cowardice happens less often than you would think.

[oneway]

Always aim for center of mass...

Always

[Jayhawk]

Wouldn't you want to damage the attacker's CNS though?  You are firing shots to stop the attacker as quickly as possible, damaging the CNS is going to be the fastest way to do that.  

Btw, I think you are much much more likely to run into an attacker on drugs than wearing body armor.  You don't have to empty your magazine, but shoot until he is no longer a threat, then reload.

[mbailey]

That must be one of those State 2 hour courses taught by the local Sherrif's office that allow them to tick off the "proper training" box on the CCW application.

Any reputable CCW school will never teach you to empty your magazine into a target, unless the target you are engaging is continuing to close distance on you and isn't going down....this is usually because of missing the target, not the target being on some pyschostimulating drugs like hollywood always says.  You continue to fire on the threat until it isn't a threat, but for example if you had hit a target multiple times and he wasn't stopping your brain lightbulb should pop saying  "this guy has armour on" and you proceed to engage him with the BA drill (ie shooting him in a non armoured spot such as the head or the pelvis".

-Emptying magazine = likely not a good idea, however multiple displaced shots are often taught as being a sound tactic.  The old "double tap" is rarely taught anymore as the rounds hitting the same or near to the same location it's been proven that this does less damage and puts less stress on the targets Central Nervous System than having two shots hit farther apart...hence most schools teaching the "Vertical Track" style of defensive shooting in a 1 v 1 threat scenario.  This is usually when the first shot is fired right out of retention (holster) and then followed by 3-5 rounds being fired progressively higher and higher from the targets belt buckle to his head, usually taken 1 second or less for all rounds fired.   This is the only example I can think of that comes remotely close to "emptying the magazine" into a target, and it isn't even 1/3 of the way there for most capacities
for modern day semi autos.

Another reason emptying magazine is a bad choice is that the "one" threat you thought you had might have friends out there, and you just wasted needless rounds on contestant number one, and now you're going to have to either take a precious second or two to reload, if you even can, or fight them now with your defensive option #2 now that your weapon is smoking and locked open on an empty magazine, and that option 2 for most people is their hands and feet, which really suck in a 1 v 2 fight.


X2 here.

A shotgun is the most "gross motor skill", meaning easy to use when the adrenalin has caused the blood to leave your fingertips in a gunfight, making small tactile things harder to do, but it is still something you should get professional training with, and practice often, as well as having a defence plan created for your living space.  Also, the ratcheting sound mentioned can not only give away your position, and can galvanize a threat into taking action, as in violent encounters cowardice happens less often than you would think.

Awesome post Gman. My father was a tactical firearms instructor for the Maine State Police and there SRT teams. I read your post and heard my dads voice while reading it.

Gman, what is your opinion of Thunder Ranch? (Defensive Handgun course ) I had the pleasure of going out 3 or 4 years ago,and learned more from that course then i had learned from any formal training i had up to that point.   ( sans Dads lessons, he made sure i could do a tactical reload before i was old enough to drive a car.....lol )

And yes i took my SIG  

[Flench]

you talking about ratcheting a shotgun . No need when it's loaded and ready . You will not hear a sound from mine . I can even push the safety off without a sound . But like I said I shot trap for year's ..

[Gman]

Right on Flench, no point in having a defensive firearm without a round in the chamber, excellent point.

As for Thunder Ranch, my personal opinion is that is one of the top 3 organizations in the USA, arguably the best depending on what criteria you use to judge such operations.  Clint Smith is one of the longest serving instructors in gunfighting in the world, and really cares about his customers.  I'm glad you went there and learned what you did, make sure you practice what they taught you whenever you are able.

Btw, I think you are much much more likely to run into an attacker on drugs than wearing body armor.  You don't have to empty your magazine, but shoot until he is no longer a threat, then reload.

Rgr that my brother, and that was exactly what I was getting at, I wasn't saying that you would have a combination of the two, it's just likely going to be one of 3 things if you have a target that won't go down - you're missing, he's got armour on, or is really hopped up on life/meth/allah/whatever...

Wouldn't you want to damage the attacker's CNS though?  You are firing shots to stop the attacker as quickly as possible, damaging the CNS is going to be the fastest way to do that.  

Precisely correct, and that was the point I was moving towards.  We teach the basic Time-Distance-Cover circular equation way of thinking about a gunfight, as all 3 things relate to one another simultaneously.  If you have only one attacker, then you have more time than if you had more than one you see, etc...

Given that you have said time, you always try to place your shots exactly into the CNS cone of vulnerability, which is an target shaped like a large circular dowel, that starts where the spinal cord begins and goes up to the center of the head where it connects with the brainstem.  It's about 4 to 6" in diameter and has nice things like the spinal cord, heart, lungs, liver, and MU where the brain and spinal cord meet, directly behind the split in the top lip on most people when facing them headon.  The more rapidly you can place multiple shots into this cone, the more likely your target will not be bothering you anymore.

[oneway]

As to Flench...

Tactically your correct...if a round is chambered as it should be...cyclic is not necessary...

However strategically, cycling the action, if prudent given the circumstances to 'warn off' a predator makes perfect sense...

Everyone who owns a weapon for self defense must be aware of the massive legal minefield you will be forced to negotiate, both criminal and civil...if you live in an unfriendly jurisdiction you will face criminal charges...on top of that you will get "wrongful" death civil suits...and if your really unlucky you will get Federal Civil Rights suits brought on you...

Think again....

If your shotgun has an extended mag...which it should...dropping a single round with a cyclic is very prudent strategically...and will have no outcome on the engagement if the rubber meets the road...

I believe that any and all methods should be employed to avoid the use of deadly force...if you can simply cycle a slide gun and avoid a confrontation...without compromising your safety....DO IT

Think of the bigger picture guys....

Out

Oneway

[Spikes]

My 2 cents...

Like Larry said, shoot to kill. If you just wound, more things can be turned against you in court of law.

Look at it this way...if a guy breaks into your house and has a weapon, you shoot & kill him, and go to court about it, it's going to be your word against his...and he doesn't have a word.

[Flench]

Just like what my 2x3 poster say's I have at the end of my drive . I live in the stick's btw .

Trespasser will be shot
        and
survivors will be re-shot .