More on Planes

[shiv]

While Heinrich said he "flew the k4 alot last month and was real successful in it" a quick look at his score for last month shows he had 70 kills in it having flown 60 sorties. That is barely over "1" as a k/d score. To him it was good success, over all I'm sure he didn't even touch the surface of what the plane is capable of with a "good" pilot behind the stick ( sorry Hienrich not trying to give you and grief here). As a comparison, Grizz has over 200 kills with 18 deaths in it last month.  

The same goes for you Muzzy, while you had 185 kills in an A8 you also had 181 deaths in it. The point here is to learn the manuvers, and then learn how much you can push each plane. These guys that are the top sticks don't fly a plane like it's "suppose" to be flown....only BnZ, or only TnB... they use the plays to get evey bit of performance out of it to shoot down the other GUY.

It's all relative though.  Isn't the average K/D for fighter under .5?  I wouldn't look at the K/D as much as I would the improvement and how it is against the average.

Some Snailstats for Tour 111 but I doubt things have changed much: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264394.0.html

Tour 111.
- only ~37% of all players managed to get a K/D better than 0.5
- only ~22% of all players reached 1.0 or better
- only 9% ended up with a K/D of 2.0 or better
- the 50% threshold was at about 0.3

Then there's the rough and tumble of the arena that means a decent fighter may get killed a lot simply because he likes to take on maybe more than he can handle, or is flying in large furballs and outnumbered, or simply trying out new things.

[The Fugitive]

It's all relative though.  Isn't the average K/D for fighter under .5?  I wouldn't look at the K/D as much as I would the improvement and how it is against the average.

Some Snailstats for Tour 111 but I doubt things have changed much: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,264394.0.html

Tour 111.
- only ~37% of all players managed to get a K/D better than 0.5
- only ~22% of all players reached 1.0 or better
- only 9% ended up with a K/D of 2.0 or better
- the 50% threshold was at about 0.3

Then there's the rough and tumble of the arena that means a decent fighter may get killed a lot simply because he likes to take on maybe more than he can handle, or is flying in large furballs and outnumbered, or simply trying out new things.

Your a good example of the point I'm trying to make Shiv. I've fought you a few times and while I'm not one of the "aces", the way you fly the Hog shows you could be considered one. If you look at your scores your k/d in the hog is heavily favored in the "kill" category, while Muzzy is about even in one model and leans more toward the "deaths" in the hog. You guys are flying the same planes, the flight model is not different, yet you excel in it where Muzzy has trouble surviving in it.

The point is, that it is the pilot and his skills NOT the plane. I would be willing to bet you would have no trouble maintaining the same general k/d should you decide to "slum it" in a pony    The more a pilot learns about pushing the plane PASS its limits the better the pilot will be in ANY plane, and against ANY plane.

Too many people do write ups like this one a "limit" themselves to not pushing the planes. Heinricks point about NOT fighting a knife fight on the deck with a K4 is a good example. While "normally you wouldn't want to do it, it can work well there "if" you know what your doing, and you'll NEVER know unless you push it.

[shiv]

Your a good example of the point I'm trying to make Shiv. I've fought you a few times and while I'm not one of the "aces", the way you fly the Hog shows you could be considered one. If you look at your scores your k/d in the hog is heavily favored in the "kill" category, while Muzzy is about even in one model and leans more toward the "deaths" in the hog. You guys are flying the same planes, the flight model is not different, yet you excel in it where Muzzy has trouble surviving in it.

The point is, that it is the pilot and his skills NOT the plane. I would be willing to bet you would have no trouble maintaining the same general k/d should you decide to "slum it" in a pony    The more a pilot learns about pushing the plane PASS its limits the better the pilot will be in ANY plane, and against ANY plane.

Too many people do write ups like this one a "limit" themselves to not pushing the planes. Heinricks point about NOT fighting a knife fight on the deck with a K4 is a good example. While "normally you wouldn't want to do it, it can work well there "if" you know what your doing, and you'll NEVER know unless you push it.

Well, but if Muzzy had the # of hours I have in a hog he'd be lethal in it, especially the way he seems to be going about learning.  And I don't disagree with what he said on the Hog above (except I would advocate at least 75% fuel in the 1A and prefer the -1 to the 1A.)  And a lot of hog flying, or the way I do it, is scissoring, which gets better with experience.  Or at least it took me a while to begin to learn it.

But there's something to be said for flying different planes and learning their limitations.  It's not for me of course   But if you're going to learn to push a particular fighter you have to devote yourself to it, which precludes flying all the others, so you can't have one without the other maybe. 

[Muzzy]

Your a good example of the point I'm trying to make Shiv. I've fought you a few times and while I'm not one of the "aces", the way you fly the Hog shows you could be considered one. If you look at your scores your k/d in the hog is heavily favored in the "kill" category, while Muzzy is about even in one model and leans more toward the "deaths" in the hog. You guys are flying the same planes, the flight model is not different, yet you excel in it where Muzzy has trouble surviving in it.

Then again, kill scores don't always reflect a pilot's skill.  My hog score was much better until I was forced to defend a CV against superior numbers. Sometimes you have to fight and die to accomplish the mission.

The point is, that it is the pilot and his skills NOT the plane. I would be willing to bet you would have no trouble maintaining the same general k/d should you decide to "slum it" in a pony    The more a pilot learns about pushing the plane PASS its limits the better the pilot will be in ANY plane, and against ANY plane.

The pilot, not the plane?  I don't know...if you put Saburo Sakai and Dick Bong in 38's who do you think would come out on top?  True, a good pilot will learn a new ride faster, but when you fly a certain ride for a long time you get used to it.  The moves go in muscle memory and you will have a tendency to try to fly the same way until you learn otherwise.

Too many people do write ups like this one a "limit" themselves to not pushing the planes. Heinricks point about NOT fighting a knife fight on the deck with a K4 is a good example. While "normally you wouldn't want to do it, it can work well there "if" you know what your doing, and you'll NEVER know unless you push it.

I like to push the envelope in the DA, where I'm not as concerned about results.

My point was simply this...is the 109K really in the same class as the D9, Pony, La7, and other "high profile" rides, or is its success rate inflated by the good sticks that fly it?

[Big Rat]

Muzzy,

I think the pilot not the plane is a valid argument in most cases.  You can stick a great stick in just about any plane and he will still fly it above average.  The reason being, he knows what he wants the aircraft to do, and he already knows how to read his opponent.  This is the majority of ACM.  Given everything else equal the one that knows his plane the best has the advantage. 

Score to me means very little in this game, not nescessarily a valid measure of ones skill in this game.

The 109k flown to it's strengths, is a great plane.  It's strengths tend to be best taken advantage by more veteran sticks.  Because it's strongest in verticle fighting, which tends to be harder to learn then most fighting styles.  If the k4 had an easier to hit with gun package, it would definitly be a perked ride.

 
BigRat

[Lusche]

My point was simply this...is the 109K really in the same class as the D9, Pony, La7, and other "high profile" rides, or is its success rate inflated by the good sticks that fly it?

Let me just compare the K4 and the D9. For the so called average player, the D9 is surely the better ride in terms of making a kill and get home. Easier to use gun package, much better high speed handling (very convenient when bouncing and running home ).

Howver, the K4 is still the better fighter in the hands seasoned AH vet. Because once you are getting used to all that quirks and how to workaround them (or making them even work for you), the K4 allows for a much better tactical flexibility in terms of fighter combat. You have a much higher chance to get out of very unfavorable situations (= being caught low & slow). The K9 has better vertical performance, turns significantly better, accelerates faster. It's just that it needs strong hand to overcome the handling issues.


Anecdotal: back when I was new, it were for exactly those reasons why I stepped back from the K4 after lawndarting a few times, trying to see something behind that cockpit frames and so on. I chose the La-7 as my first main ride, and did fly the 190D-9 a lot more before finally picking up the K4 again much later. The better I got in later tours, the more often I used the k-4 and left the more limited D-9 in the hangar.

[Ardy123]

WAAA? snailman you retired from the game?

sorry about the tangential conversation. Beyond that, I agree with what Snailman just said.

[The Fugitive]

Then again, kill scores don't always reflect a pilot's skill.  My hog score was much better until I was forced to defend a CV against superior numbers. Sometimes you have to fight and die to accomplish the mission.

The pilot, not the plane?  I don't know...if you put Saburo Sakai and Dick Bong in 38's who do you think would come out on top?  True, a good pilot will learn a new ride faster, but when you fly a certain ride for a long time you get used to it.  The moves go in muscle memory and you will have a tendency to try to fly the same way until you learn otherwise.



I like to push the envelope in the DA, where I'm not as concerned about results.

My point was simply this...is the 109K really in the same class as the D9, Pony, La7, and other "high profile" rides, or is its success rate inflated by the good sticks that fly it?

Which is it...concerned with results or not? One minute you don't care about score "for the mission" then you only push aircraft in the DA so it doesn't hurt your score.

First, if you want to get good at fighting, forget score, it's useless.

Second don't bother trying to compare real life pilots like Bong with what we do. If you tried half the stuff in real life that we do routinely do in the game you'd be dead EVERYTIME.

The point is learn the plane, push it past its limits. Some guys are VERY good at turn fighting in a pony and can surprise most spit drivers. It's because they know their plane. A K4 on the deck can reverse in an instant, so fast that many think the guy is cheating, but all the driver is doing is mashing the throttles at the right time and using the torque to flip it.

Shivs got a bunch of time in his Hog, why? well I'm sure he has a thing for the HOG  but he is learning it inside out with all that time and it's what make him pretty darn good. Put him in a pony and I'd bet he could beat most hogs he comes up against because he knows the plane so well, not because the pony is better.

[BaldEagl]

Well it's obvious that the plane is capable of some amazing things, but I wonder what the outcome would be if you put two equally hot sticks against each other, one in the K4 and another in say the La7 or Mustang.

The K4 will eat P-51's for lunch and Spit them out in virtually any situation.  The P-51D is my favorite target in the K4 because he has no options.  He can't out-climb, out-turn, out-accelerate or out-run a K4.   The La-7's a better match-up but I'd place the two about even in capability with the edge going to the K4 if flown properly.

190's of any variety are my second favorite target in a K4, particularily Doras who think they'll just breeze away with Typhoons/Tempests close behind.

There aren't many planes that I won't fight low and slow on the deck with in the K4 and there arent really any that are so much faster that they can simply disengage at will.


BTW... I landed a five kill sortie in an A8 last night.  Was hoping for more but ran out of targets.  The best fight of the night though was me in a D3A1 vs an A6M2 in EW.  I should have won having raked him several times with my single 7.9mm machine gun but made a mistake and augered.    Gotta love that D3A1 and they're sexy too.

[Muzzy]

Which is it...concerned with results or not? One minute you don't care about score "for the mission" then you only push aircraft in the DA so it doesn't hurt your score.

First, if you want to get good at fighting, forget score, it's useless.

Second don't bother trying to compare real life pilots like Bong with what we do. If you tried half the stuff in real life that we do routinely do in the game you'd be dead EVERYTIME.

The point is learn the plane, push it past its limits. Some guys are VERY good at turn fighting in a pony and can surprise most spit drivers. It's because they know their plane. A K4 on the deck can reverse in an instant, so fast that many think the guy is cheating, but all the driver is doing is mashing the throttles at the right time and using the torque to flip it.

Shivs got a bunch of time in his Hog, why? well I'm sure he has a thing for the HOG  but he is learning it inside out with all that time and it's what make him pretty darn good. Put him in a pony and I'd bet he could beat most hogs he comes up against because he knows the plane so well, not because the pony is better.

My point regarding Bong and Sakai is that given two good pilots, one who knows the 38 and one who doesn't, the one who knows the ride better will probably win.  I was using their names as examples because Bong was known for being a 38 driver and Sakai was not. I'm fully aware of the differences between cartoon flying and life or death flying, thank you.

What I have learned here is that you have to spend a lot of time in a plane in order to learn how to fly it well.  I'm successful (at least to my satisfaction, which is the only thing that matters to me in this game) in the A8 because I've learned to fly it to its strengths and because I'm an opportunistic SOB who will look for targets that aren't paying attention and kill them. 1v1 I'm not very good, although I've learned a lot more this month and will learn still more the next. Like anything else, there's a learning curve.

Am I concerned about my kill scores? Yes, as a measure of progress, although admittedly it's not a very good measure.  They're just another form of feedback and if they mean nothing than so does the fact that Grizz has a 200/18 K/D over Heinrich's 70/60.

Do I push planes in the MA?  Well, when pilots like DrBone and pacerr around you don't really have a choice, do you? I've taken the A8 down on the deck, gotten into turn-fights with zekes and spit's, and been forced to run from La's and Ponies. In the DA I will fly planes closer to the edge because I don't need to worry about augering so much.  I'm just less cautious in the DA because there are no objectives to be met (CAP, base takes, or defenses for example), so the pressure to stay alive is somewhat lessened. The truth is I learn the most in the TA, from guys like Soulyss and Morfiend who are kind enough to take the time to teach us noobs how to really fly.

I'm sure Shiv would do equally well in a Pony as he would in a Hog, but only after investing the time to learn the Pony first. Straight out of the hangar he's probably not going to be as comfortable or as successful.

To rephrase the question that started this discussion...is the K4 really a better performing aircraft than others in the game, or does its high kill stats reflect the quality of the pilots who are currently flying it?  Comparing the stats, the K4 is competitive with just about every late-war non-perked plane in the game, so yes, it really is one of the best rides out there. It does, however, have some flaws that require experience and skill to overcome.  So the K4 has such an impressive record because it really is one of the best performing planes in the game, *and* it's flown by some of the best pilots, which means its kill score will be even higher.

[Ghosth]

Just for kicks one night in the TA when I was feeling particularly picked on by Bigrat in his F4u I upped a K4 with 50% fuel.

I could engage him at will, pop a tater or 2 at him if I got a good line. But more importantly I could disengage, and extend away at virtually any point in the fight. And there was virtually nothing he could do about it except chase me. I'd extend level building my speed, do a zoom immelman, and be rolling in on him from high.  Because the K would out zoom him, I would always end up above him, nose low, able to roll in on his 6 with a quick roll and pull.

The longer it went on, the higher I took the fight, and the higher we were the more pronounced the advantage was. And the more options I had to avoid him.

The 109k is a monster, and if it had a 20mm option it would end up being perked.
But to fly it well you have to learn to hit with the tater.  And that folks, is the hard part.
Some manage to do it very well, and they have awesome reputations in the k4.


 

[Muzzy]

....and Ghosth...my first tutorial was with him....speaking of which:

How do you beat the K4?

[The Fugitive]

<snip>

I'm sure Shiv would do equally well in a Pony as he would in a Hog, but only after investing the time to learn the Pony first. Straight out of the hangar he's probably not going to be as comfortable or as successful.

That's where I think your wrong. I think if Shiv were ever to jump out of the Hog and into a pony he would have no trouble being as successful in the pony as in the hog because it's the PILOT, not the PLANE that decides most fights.

To rephrase the question that started this discussion...is the K4 really a better performing aircraft than others in the game, or does its high kill stats reflect the quality of the pilots who are currently flying it?  Comparing the stats, the K4 is competitive with just about every late-war non-perked plane in the game, so yes, it really is one of the best rides out there. It does, however, have some flaws that require experience and skill to overcome.  So the K4 has such an impressive record because it really is one of the best performing planes in the game, *and* it's flown by some of the best pilots, which means its kill score will be even higher.

The K4 is an ANIMAL! It does however have some nasty querks which is why you don't see it flown by everyone like the Spit16. And being flown by the better sticks is what brings it up in the kills numbers. Like Ghosth said, if it had the 20mm cannon on it it would have to be perked because alot more people would be in it.

To beat it, I like to force over shoots and hope my aim is better than the other guys  The rolling scissors works well, but your timing has to be very good. All the other guy needs is one shot, so you have to work hard to NOT give it to him and make your shots count when you get them.

[whiteman]

Some of your -1D deaths may just be the nature of the Jabo. I die/ditch at a higher clip in the -1D due to:
1. getting killed by ack of all sorts
2. jumped by defensive CAP while Hvy and loaded with fuel
3. fuel leaks
4. flying into stupid numbers to drop on field strats/cv's

There are more but I'm to tired to think right now, but the models are the same. F4U-1 and -4 are where you see the biggest difference in performance, but strangely enough if i go back through all my tours i bet i have a beet K/D in the -1 than the -4 just because the perk value for killing a -4.

 If i get my ords off and can climb back to altitude I'll most likely get some kills and make it home.

[BrownBaron]

....and Ghosth...my first tutorial was with him....speaking of which:

How do you beat the K4?

Depends on what you're in.