Kamikaze in FSO

[daddog]

I am not keen on Kamikazes in FSO, but if an Admin wanted to try them I would be willing to listen. Right now the biggest limitation is as Ghostdancer stated. Can't record it in the logs and the damage is null.

As for all the other off topic, personal comments some of you are making about this squad or that squad, I suggest you drop it or you will be forced to play in another sand box.

[Skuzzy]

<snip>
As for all the other off topic, personal comments some of you are making about this squad or that squad, I suggest you drop it or you will be forced to play in another sand box.

Quoted for truth.  If you cannot make a positive contribution to the thread topic, then you need to move along.  We (HTC) have "zero" tolerance for players who cannot act with respect towards the special events and the members who work to make them happen.

[CHAPPY]

See Rule #4
 
« Last Edit: Today at 09:23:20 AM by Skuzzy » 
 

[VonMessa]

See Rule #4
 
« Last Edit: Today at 09:23:20 AM by Skuzzy » 
 

Damn, Skuzzy is good!

He pwnd you an hour before you even posted it.   



Jim,
   
   I kinda like the idea, but.....   only if it can be implemented fairly.   Since it wouldn't be through the coading, it's gonna be difficult.

As for the pissing contests in the only sanctuary left in this game?

Sad.     

[MachNix]

Scoring the Kamikazes:
Use an aircraft that is clearly out matched and defenseless such as a Ju-87 with a small bomb load – jettison the 1000 kg bomb on runway and keep the two 250 kg bombs as an example.  Put a low point value (like 1 or even 0 points) for the aircraft.  There may be little to no points earned by the defenders for shooting the Kamikazes down but they do keep them from earning points.  And the Kamikazes earn their points the same as it is always done – by putting bombs on the target.  We had a scenario where points where awarded for each ton of damage done to a CV.  The same thing can be done here but they should get more points for getting bombs on the target then they loose if the aircraft is lost.  This should create the motivation to dive in deep to ensure they hit with their bombs.  So actually crashing the plane into the target earns nothing and does not need to be tracked.

Now why a CiC would want to commit a portion of his highly skilled forces to a Kamikaze attack when he could better use his resources by putting them in heavy fighters or bombers is beyond me.

[ghostdancer]

MachNix having bombs attached or not doesn't matter for the code. If you slam into a structure with bombs attached to your plane it does no damage to the structure. So it goes back to the only way to verify a hit by a kamikaze is visually. So the CMs would have to have an observer on each ship who would need to film the attach so we have some way to verify it.

Even then the ship could be hit but the observer might not be able to verify it do to parts of the ship blocking their view.

In most of my FSOs I awarded points for partial damage done to a CV. I can tell you basically how much lbs of ordinance are put on a ship. But the key here is that the bomb must be armed and hit the ship. If the bomb is not armed then the logs don't record it. So once again no way to verify except visually whether the Kamikaze hit a ship or not.

All the logs will record is that Kamikaze crashed nothing more. No differentiation between crashing into the sea, the ground, a CV, a hangar, etc. Just a recording of a crash.

[MachNix]

Scoring the Kamikazes:
Use an aircraft that is clearly out matched and defenseless such as a Ju-87 with a small bomb load – jettison the 1000 kg bomb on runway and keep the two 250 kg bombs as an example.  Put a low point value (like 1 or even 0 points) for the aircraft.  There may be little to no points earned by the defenders for shooting the Kamikazes down but they do keep them from earning points.  And the Kamikazes earn their points the same as it is always done – by putting bombs on the target.  We had a scenario where points where awarded for each ton of damage done to a CV.  The same thing can be done here but they should get more points for getting bombs on the target then they loose if the aircraft is lost.  This should create the motivation to dive in deep to ensure they hit with their bombs.  So actually crashing the plane into the target earns nothing and does not need to be tracked.

Obviously, I did not make it clear in the red text above that the Kamikazes had to drop their bombs and the bombs had to explode on the target.  As you know, this is the way it currently works for all aircraft.  The Kamikazes get no points and cause no damage for ramming the ship.  Ramming is not required or mandatory.  Since the point value for the aircraft is so low, their survival does not have an impact on the score.  Now you may want them to crash after they drop their bombs so the defenders can concentrate on those aircraft that still have bombs.

Again, I don't see why a CiC would use his forces in this way but it could be done using the scoring tools currently available.

[ghostdancer]

Sorry I read it as the bombs were still attached and you were putting the bombs and plane on target. Didn't realize you meant actually release the bombs.

So what you are saying is:

1) Designer designate a certain plane type as Kamikaze.
2) This plane to have a different point value than other planes when killed
3) To score the bombs must hit and explode and the Kamikaze plane must die. If he doesn't then no difference between him and normal bomber / attack plane.

It is issue item three that would be the issue. If it not required for the Kamikaze to die then technically he could dive bomb from high alt, pull out, and head for home. Or he could level bomb and then head for home. From the logs we know the bombs hit but nothing else. No idea of alt, level or dive bomb, etc.  So to simulate we would have to a death recorded ... either crash or death in the logs shortly after the bombs.

Other question is what if he doesn't die? The damage will still count but he didn't simulate a kamikaze which is why his plane has less point value.

You would also have another possible issue even if he does die. What if he releases from high alt, so outside of the effective AA guns. Then he goes and crashes afterwards. Basically making sure he gets his bombs on target. However, a real kamikaze could be stopped by a well place shot at extreme short range. In this scenario the kamikaze can't be forced to do a short range attack. No good way to simulate it.

[MachNix]

On Item 3:  The Kamikaze does not have to die.  The only thing that distinguishes the Kamikaze from any normal bomber or attack plane in the event is it being outclassed by the other planes.  I would not want to see the Kamikazes actually mixing it up with the defenders and I picked the Ju-87 just as an example because I don’t think the 87 is any match for a Seafire or F4F if the 87 decided to fight.

The only thing in FSO that makes the Kamikaze a Kamikaze is he is flying a plane that he shouldn’t be able to dog fight in so they should not be earning points for air kills, the plane is essentially worthless so there is no concern about bring the airplane back, and the only sure way of earning points is to hit the ships with bombs.

When dive bombing, you have two things to consider.  On the one hand the deeper you go the greater chance you have of hitting the ship.  On the other hand the deeper you go the greater the chances of getting hit by the AA guns before you get your bombs off.  If someone is able to hit a ship from high altitude and outside the AA gun range, then so be it.  But are you depending on the AA guns to protect the ships?  I say it is up to the defenders to intercept and destroy the Kamikazes before they can get to the ships.

The event designers can play with the numbers to keep the event balanced.  If they think a lot of Kamikazes will get through and hit the ships, then either they can restrict the bomb load to say 500 lbs and/or reduce the number of points awarded for each pound of damage done.

I agree that there is no good way to simulate a Kamikaze.  IMO, the average player already has more experience with the virtual hardware then the real life Kamikaze did during the war.  Using Kamikazes in FSO is possible under the current scoring system but I feel it would be a waste of talent.

[Krusty]

On Item 3:  The Kamikaze does not have to die. 

I have to completely disagree on everything you've typed... It's one thing to be "outclassed" and usually one side is. You come up with tactics and plans of attack to help counter this disadvantage....

Kamikaze is specifically the act of killing oneself in hope of damaging the enemy worse than the loss of your life damaged YOUR team.

Your entire description of disadvantaged planes, well.... Honestly? Sh** happens. Why build in a stupid "plow yourself into a battleship" part of that sh**? I don't think any one of us enjoys "dying" in FSO, but I'd be pretty sure all of us hates dying "for nothing" (i.e. afk, i.e. power loss, i.e. didn't see an enemy flying along and POOF).

Kamikaze is bad for AH, end of story.

[AKH]

Really.. If you want to emulate kamikaze, or muslim suicide bombers, or IRA car bombers, you have a screw loose and need serious help from medical personnel.

We must take the moral high ground and stick to the acceptable ways of killing people 

[MachNix]

Krusty,
The purpose of using a disadvantaged plane is to simulate the Kamikaze’s lack of skill.  The Japanese had a pile of planes and a bunch of untrained people.  The plan they came up with was to give them few hours of stick-time and show them how to crash into a ship.  It was the quickest and easiest way for them to turn what they had into a weapon.

As far as dying for nothing goes, anytime you did in this game it is for nothing.  But I agree with you that the Kamikaze has no place in AH.  We are all highly trained cartoon pilots and can bomb a cartoon ship without having to crash into it.

[perdue3]

This thread has been OWNED by Skuzzy. Includes one perma ban.

The Kamikaze thing has no credibility. Why would you ask HTC to take the time and make such a code or system where your plane did damage to an object. Wouldn't you rather have an HE 111   


perdweeb