Author Topic: Who broke it first?  (Read 2940 times)

Offline columbus

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2010, 05:19:34 PM »
without a plane?  Joe Kittinger did

Offline DERK13

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2010, 05:28:58 PM »
Yea chuck did it in level flight but sound barrier is the sound barrier, if you broke it you broke level or dive still happened either way you look at it. And just because the plane wasnt in service doesnt mean it still wasnt broke, there is no rule saying it has to be in service to break the sound barrier. Jeez

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Offline Shifty

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2010, 05:44:02 PM »
Yea chuck did it in level flight but sound barrier is the sound barrier, if you broke it you broke level or dive still happened either way you look at it. And just because the plane wasnt in service doesnt mean it still wasnt broke, there is no rule saying it has to be in service to break the sound barrier. Jeez

Here's your OP... I put the text in bold where you say pilots... The first test Saber flew Oct 1st 1947 just short of two weeks before Yeager' Bell X1 flight on the 14th. It sounds as if you're stating it was a regular occurance by numerous pilots in numerous aircraft.

Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic  ;)) <S> tell me what you know.

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Offline curry1

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2010, 05:51:48 PM »
Something tells me no F-86 pilot was doing full power dive tests within two weeks after the first flight of the aircraft.
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Offline Yeager

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2010, 06:36:15 PM »
The sound barrier was most likely broken during the time of the second world war.  Most likely several times.  If I recall correctly at least one man survived.  Again though, Yeager is credited with being the first to do so with sole intent, with an airplane design specifically to study the transonic region, and with intrumentation that recorded the proof.

Yeager has rightfully gone down in history as the first man to break the sound barrier with evidence and live to talk about it.

F86s?  I agree it is a believable story, but without proof it is strictly historical conjecture. 
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Offline JHerne

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2010, 06:49:56 PM »
Ok, I'll chime in here...in an official capacity...

I was the Director of the NJ Aviation Hall of Fame and Museum from 1997-2005. In that museum, we have most of the records from a company called Reaction Motors (of Denville, NJ). Reaction Motors claim to fame was XLR-11, a variable thrust liquid fuel rocket motor that was used in the X-1 (and also a 4-motor version in the X-15). Reaction Motors also developed the XLR-99, the world's first high-variable thrust rocket motor. Bell Aircraft's first X-1 test pilot was a gent named Chamlers Goodlin, aka 'Slick' Goodlin.

I knew the man personally and were good friends. Sadly, cancer took him in 2005, but, in several conversations, he related that HE piloted the X-1 beyond the sound barrier more than once. Slick made 26 flights in the X-1 before it was handed over the USAF. Because the X-1 was an Air Force project, that fact was kept under wraps.

It was determined that the official breaking of the sound barrier was to be done by the military as a way to show off to the world. Chalmers commented that because the media and the world were watching, they (Bell and the USAF) wanted to make sure that the sound barrier could indeed be broken without destroying the aircraft. In other words, it was a perfectly planned media event.

Now, take that for what its worth. Perhaps he was a man who felt jilted that someone else did and got the glory. Perhaps he's telling the truth. All I know, is that I had a signed photo of Goodlin hanging in my office, and there was no denying what the man accomplished.

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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2010, 07:42:03 PM »
The sound barrier was most likely broken during the time of the second world war.  Most likely several times.  If I recall correctly at least one man survived.

What in?

Couldn't be the 262.
Willy Messerschmitt carried out extensive wind tunnel tests and stated it could only attain Mach 0.86.
It is possible they reached transonic speeds, but this isn't breaking the sound barrier.
Hans Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier in a 262, but all the effects he describes are regarded to have been the onset of transonic flight.

[edit] The RAE conlcuded Mach 0.84.
However both parties said any higher speed would result in an uncontrollable, un-recoverable dive.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 07:46:48 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2010, 08:22:24 PM »
What in?

Couldn't be the 262.
Willy Messerschmitt carried out extensive wind tunnel tests and stated it could only attain Mach 0.86.
It is possible they reached transonic speeds, but this isn't breaking the sound barrier.
Hans Mutke claimed to have broken the sound barrier in a 262, but all the effects he describes are regarded to have been the onset of transonic flight.

[edit] The RAE conlcuded Mach 0.84.
However both parties said any higher speed would result in an uncontrollable, un-recoverable dive.

Taken from the link (Was Chuck Yeager the First to Break the Sound Barrier?) that was posted a couple of posts above.

Quote
Mutke's report was given additional credibility in 1999, when computer modeling and scale model wind tunnel testing conducted at Munich Technical University found that the 262 was capable of reaching, and passing, Mach 1.


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Offline SCTusk

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2010, 09:42:38 PM »
Something tells me no F-86 pilot was doing full power dive tests within two weeks after the first flight of the aircraft.

I have an uncle (in his mid eighties now) who flew F86's (as well as Vampires and Meteors) in the RAF during the late 50's and early 60's. He has a certificate obtained flying an F86 which proclaims him a member of the 'Canadian Mach Buster's Club'. From what I understand the F86 would slip through (the sound barrier) quite easily in a dive, if true then welch's claims seem quite believable.

Interestingly, the British assault on the barrier produced the Miles M52 which never flew due to government cutbacks. In a reciprocal research agreement boffins from the USA were given full access to the Brit's data and research, but the USA never honoured their side of the bargain, instead choosing to keep their cards close to their chest and race for the title using the newly aquired data. I read somewhere that recent tests indicate the M52 could have easily broken the barrier, and there is little question that Chuck would have been killed without the British input. That's what allies are for, I guess.         

 
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Offline DERK13

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2010, 09:48:14 PM »
Yeager, in level flight. George "Wheaties" Welch in a dive, several days before.
Thank you look it up ppl

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2010, 09:53:15 PM »
Thank you look it up ppl


It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight.  Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier.  So who broke it first?  Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.

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Offline Guppy35

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2010, 11:17:15 PM »
Thank you look it up ppl


What AKAK said.  And your original post implied lots of 86 pilots had done it before Yeager.  You clearly saw the show on the Military Channel where they were talking about the 86 and the guy mentioned that 86s broke the speed of sound in a dive.  Many Sabre drivers did it but that was after Yeager.  The 86 hadn't reached operational squadrons at that point.

Welch's flight was in the first 86 and is not official and still debated.  In the end it really doesn't matter at this point.  Apparently the catch is one was in a dive and one was in level flight.

Yeager was credited with being the first October 14, 1947 in the Bell X-1

Officially Welch broke the speed of sound in the XP86 in a shallow dive on November 13, 1947.  I've also seen it reported as not until April 26, 1948.


Probably the one thing folks could agree with is that both Yeager and Welch thought quite highly of themselves and were both very competitive.  Welch was with the wartime 80th Headhunters for a while flying 38s and apparently thought he could play by a different set of rules based on his Pearl Harbor exploits.  He and 80th CO Porky Cragg didn't get along at all if the histories can be believed.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2010, 01:39:22 AM »
It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight.  Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier.  So who broke it first?  Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.

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Offline branch37

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2010, 02:48:09 AM »

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Offline BigR

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2010, 05:51:13 AM »
I broke wind in level flight just the other day. The guy next to me never even knew. Or did he?