Author Topic: Who broke it first?  (Read 3004 times)

Offline Tupac

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2010, 03:50:26 PM »
milesobrian is PNG, so disregard any of his posts in the thread.
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Offline Ripsnort

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2010, 04:03:49 PM »
milesobrian is PNG, so disregard any of his posts in the thread.
:)

Offline Widewing

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2010, 08:17:54 PM »
Shifty saved me some typing.

You are both incorrect...

George Welch made the first flight in the XP-86 on October 1, 1947 at Muroc Field. He climbed to 35k, bunted-over into a dive and attained no less than Mach 1.02. He duplicated it on October 14, about and hour before the XS-1 with Yeager aboard was dropped from the B-29. Welch targeted the B-29 for the boom, diving past within 1,000 yards. Because North American Aviation had been expressly forbidden to take the XP-86 supersonic before the XS-1 program attained the milestone, these dives were done without flight data recorders running. However, Welch reported a first ever seen phenomenon, called "Mach Jump". If you talk to anyone in the Flight Test Community, they will tell you that if Welch saw this, he was supersonic. I know, because I researched this extensively, spending many hours chatting with test pilots and engineers at Edwards and Dryden.

Both times, the double-booms were noted at Muroc by many reliable witnesses. After the first dive, everyone, including the Bell team, knew that Welch had ignored the USAF order. Four weeks later, Welch repeated this with NACA observing the test dive. He reached Mach 1.04, and this dive IS fully documented.

It wasn't like the Air Force wasn't aware of Welch's forays above Mach 1. They called North American Aviation onto the carpet and warned them not to breathe a word of it. It wasn't until April of 1948 that the USAF announced that the XP-86 had exceeded the speed of sound. Why the secrecy? The Air Force's R&D budget was already being challenged by the Navy. All they needed was a privately funded, production prototype beating the XS-1 thru the sound barrier, and Congress would likely have chopped the heart out of the budget.

I could go into this in great depth, but I haven't the time to spend. I know Welch's son Jay. I've seen his dad's log book and photos of the XP-86's log book. On each dive exceeding a Mach 1 (including later dives fully documented), Welch made a notation.. "High Mach Dive".

Where can you read about this? You can buy Test Pilot All Blackburn's book, "Aces Wild: The Race for Mach One." Or you can read an abbreviated version in the Smithsonian's AirSpace magazine here: http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/mach.html  

« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 08:33:41 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2010, 08:32:57 PM »
I forgot to mention two things...

I was asked by Al's publisher to review Al's book. They sent me an uncorrected galley proof (draft copy), which I still have. My review is on the dust jacket, under my real name....
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Online Captain Virgil Hilts

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2010, 09:00:10 PM »
 :old:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Widewing

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #50 on: October 25, 2010, 09:19:36 PM »

Welch's flight was in the first 86 and is not official and still debated.  In the end it really doesn't matter at this point.  Apparently the catch is one was in a dive and one was in level flight.

Yeager was credited with being the first October 14, 1947 in the Bell X-1

Officially Welch broke the speed of sound in the XP86 in a shallow dive on November 13, 1947.  I've also seen it reported as not until April 26, 1948.


Probably the one thing folks could agree with is that both Yeager and Welch thought quite highly of themselves and were both very competitive.  Welch was with the wartime 80th Headhunters for a while flying 38s and apparently thought he could play by a different set of rules based on his Pearl Harbor exploits.  He and 80th CO Porky Cragg didn't get along at all if the histories can be believed.

Corky, what has being in a dive or level flight have to do with anything? The first is still the first. The recognized British record (first British aircraft to exceed Mach 1) involved a dive, an out of control dive to boot. Nonetheless, the record still stands. No double standards... However, the fact remains that the first British pilot to exceed Mach 1 was Bee Beaumont, flying the.. You guessed it, the XP-86.

No air breathing jet fighter exceeded Mach 1 in level flight until the first flight of the YP-100 Super Sabre. Guess who piloted it? Yep, George Welch.

Jay Welch related a story of his dad's issues with Porky Cragg. It seems that Welch tended to ignore orders he didn't care for. This was apparently more than Cragg could tolerate gladly. However, Cragg also knew that Welch was Hap Arnold's fair-haired boy and short of murdering someone, was untouchable.

An example of this was Welch's Squadron CO on Oahu. He disapproved Welch's CMoH recommendation, claiming that Welch had taken off without orders (he shot down 4, with two probables). Arnold was incensed and that officer's career was effectively over. It was Arnold that got Welch his test pilot position with North American after it was determined that Welch's malaria was too severe to allow him into the SWPA again. Once cleared for flying again, Arnold arranged to have Welch discharged and he immediately went to work at NA testing the P-51H, and later, the XP-82. Welch was selected as a test pilot for the XFJ-1 Fury and lead test pilot for XP-86 program.  

Anyway, Cragg wasn't especially fond of Welch, but he recognized that Welch was one of the most talented fighter pilots in the Headhunters. Welch was well liked by his some of his squadron mates, but he was not the type to draw followers. Welch was a bit of a screwball. If he flew a mission and shot down less than two Japanese, he didn't put in a claim. Jay Welch says that his dad under-reported his kills by at least 4.

Blackburn writes a pretty good biography of Welch, and you quickly see that he was one of those rare, wild-eyed crazy pilots that had a lot more talent than sense. Welch died in an early production F-100. He was chummy with Yeager (whom Welch called "the best stick and rudder test pilot" he ever knew). Yeager warned Welch that the F-100 was too unstable in the yaw axis for a high Mach, high G pull-out test. Welch shrugged off the warning and was dead two hours later...
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #51 on: October 25, 2010, 09:56:00 PM »
When I was playing football in high school, I got clipped and checked to see if the ref threw the flag.  When he didn't, I went over and asked why, it was such an obvious clip and he said, "sorry, didn't see it. no penalty."

Sure, Welch was the first but you know what?  The ref didn't see it.

ack-ack
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Offline F22RaptorDude

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #52 on: October 25, 2010, 09:59:18 PM »
I heard there's a myth bout a ME-163 breaking the barrier. Idk tho, no records
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #53 on: October 25, 2010, 10:21:19 PM »
It's not official so it doesn't count and note, it was in a dive while Yeager achieved it in level flight.  Yeager's flight was recorded so he's the one that is officially credited with being the first one to break the sound barrier.  So who broke it first?  Yeager did and there are no records to prove otherwise.

ack-ack

This is true. There are no records for XP-86 supersonic flights prior to November 13, 1947.

However, people have been sentenced to the electric chair based upon far less evidence than I can present that Welch was first.
We know the XP-86 was easily supersonic capable.
We know that when Welch repeated the exact same flight profiles just a few weeks later, they officially produced Mach 1.02 and Mach 1.04 respectively.
We know that Welch set out to break Mach 1 on October 1, 1947, if only for his personal satisfaction.
We know that there were many, reliable witnesses who heard the booms.

These are significant facts that cannot be ignored.

So, who was really first? Welch. No doubt about it in my mind. Who is officially first? Yeager, and they have test data to support it. Moreover, the XS-1 (later X-1) was capable of far greater speeds than just tweaking past Mach 1. The test program was slow and deliberate. If had not been so, Yeager may not have survived. The XS-1 had serious control issues to iron out first. The XP-86, with its "flying tail" slab elevators was considerably more controllable near Mach 1 than the XS-1 was during the latter's early flights. Once the XS-1 control problems were corrected, it was certainly far more speed capable than any F-86 Sabre.

Let's put this argument into perspective...  In April of 1939, the specially designed and built Me 209 set a world closed course speed record of 469 mph. This record stood for 30 years, and was officially broken by Darryl Greenamyer's F8F-2 in 1969. Does anyone doubt that there were many single piston engine, prop driven aircraft that were faster than the Me 209? Of course not. The P-51H was nearly 20 mph faster in combat trim. Likewise, various other WWII fighters could fly faster. However, no one bothered to go after the official record until Darryl Greenamyer did. But, if we stick to the tiresome rule of "official", we have to ignore reality. Reality doesn't care about what is or isn't official.

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Widewing

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #54 on: October 25, 2010, 10:22:42 PM »
When I was playing football in high school, I got clipped and checked to see if the ref threw the flag.  When he didn't, I went over and asked why, it was such an obvious clip and he said, "sorry, didn't see it. no penalty."

Sure, Welch was the first but you know what?  The ref didn't see it.

ack-ack

I agree... Ask Miami and the Vikings about things not seen! ;)
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2010, 11:12:07 AM »
My Great Grandfather broke the sound barrier way before both of them. His nickname was Smelly Pete.
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Offline adam1

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Re: Who broke it first?
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2010, 08:03:48 PM »
Chuck Yeager was the first to be credited with breaking the sound barrier in his Bell X-1, but it is said that F86 pilots broke it way before Chuck Yeager ever did. The F86 pilots said they would go up to about 35,000 feet and go into a dive and would soon break the sound barrier. The pilots would break glass in hangers and buildings in the area. So who actually broke it first? (im sure ack ack will have some information on this topic  ;)) <S> tell me what you know.

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 I heard somewhere that some Me262 pilot claimed to break it.
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