TnB/Stall Fighting

[Heinrich Ehrler]

When you are stall fighting, which is more efficient? Stall fighting WITH the shudder or Stall fighting on the edge just BEFORE the plane begins to shudder? By efficient, I mean max degrees per second for any given plane.



Thanks,

Ehrler

[kilo2]

Shudder. Right on the edge of losing control and stalling out.

[Heinrich Ehrler]

Shudder. Right on the edge of losing control and stalling out.

Appreciate the quick response.


Thanks

Ehrler

[FLS]

Your best sustained turn rate will be at a particular speed depending on your aircraft, weight and altitude. If you get below that speed you won't turn as well even though you are still on the edge of stalling. It's better to be slightly fast than slightly slow.

[Ghosth]

Personally just riding the buffet edge. The buffet is actually the wing starting to stall, when it does the airflow breaks up over the wing, becomes turbulent. This is not as efficient as just short of the buffet.

So normally as close to the edge as you can get.

[Heinrich Ehrler]

Personally just riding the buffet edge. The buffet is actually the wing starting to stall, when it does the airflow breaks up over the wing, becomes turbulent. This is not as efficient as just short of the buffet.

So normally as close to the edge as you can get.

To clarify, in a stall fight, to extract maximum performance, fly the "edge" BEFORE the buffet as the shudder is actually early separation of airflow from the foil which would result in less lift, ie. less turn performance?

[maddafinga]

That sounds right to me. Keep in mind too, there are degrees of buffet, so you'll need to mess around in whatever plane you'll be flying to get a feel for the exact edge.  The buffet starts soft and gets harder the more you pull into it.  If you get up and really pay attention to where it starts and how much it's buffeting and how far you're pulling to get what result you can really improve your plane's performance when you need it. 

[BaldEagl]

It seems to me that in most planes the maximum turn rate is just inside the beginning of the buffet.  That still leaves you a little room to pull lead for a shot knowing that you'll give up turn rate and possibly stall a wing if you get too gready making that decision a potential make or break move in the fight.

[Mar]

As Bald hinted at, it does vary from plane to plane. The 109 achieves a better turn by going very far into the buffet just on the edge of stalling a wing, but the P51 can't go that far into it without suffering sever drag.

[Ardy123]

The 109 achieves a better turn by going very far into the buffet just on the edge of stalling a wing, but the P51 can't go that far into it without suffering sever drag.

On the 109, using the rudder to keep the nose up and counter the fall of a wingtip due to stall you can go almost beyond the flight envelope. It takes a little practice, but you'd be surprised how far you can take it.

[Ack-Ack]

When you are stall fighting, which is more efficient? Stall fighting WITH the shudder or Stall fighting on the edge just BEFORE the plane begins to shudder? By efficient, I mean max degrees per second for any given plane.



Thanks,

Ehrler

In a combat situation, there are other factors that can come into play that determine how far you "ride the edge", sometimes to the point of crossing the line and stalling your plane out intentionally.  I fly the P-38 and when I get into a turn fight with planes that turn better than me, stall fighting is what I mainly use and there are times that to get an angle or reverse positions, I will intentionally cross the line and stall my plane out.

ack-ack

[morfiend]

 some great imformation here guys.keep it up!

  the last 3 post in particular are important things to consider,the amount of drag your creating,using rudder to help lift the stalled wing and intentionally stalling to change the situation are all highly developed skills you need to aquire to be really effective as a stall fighter.

  This is not to say others haven't contributed good imformation,it's just the last 3 points touch on what I consider the most important parts of a stall fight.

   

[Silat]

On the 109, using the rudder to keep the nose up and counter the fall of a wingtip due to stall you can go almost beyond the flight envelope. It takes a little practice, but you'd be surprised how far you can take it.

Ardy thanks for that clear and concise statement.
But I do not believe a bunny knows anything about being a fighter peelot.

[Muzzy]

In a combat situation, there are other factors that can come into play that determine how far you "ride the edge", sometimes to the point of crossing the line and stalling your plane out intentionally.  I fly the P-38 and when I get into a turn fight with planes that turn better than me, stall fighting is what I mainly use and there are times that to get an angle or reverse positions, I will intentionally cross the line and stall my plane out.

ack-ack

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that lead us into the issue of stall recovery in ACM?  In some situations and/or aircraft isn't it much harder to recover once you've stalled? 

[Ack-Ack]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that lead us into the issue of stall recovery in ACM? 

Yes, as it's part of the element of stall fighting and how much you can push your plane to the edge.  If you're in a plane that doesn't have a gentle stall characteristic or an easy stall recovery then that is going to dictate how close to the edge you can fly.  In planes like the Lightning with its extremely gentle stall characteristic and it's fantastically easy stall recovery, you can ride the edge that much closer than you could in the other kind of plane I mentioned.

In some situations and/or aircraft isn't it much harder to recover once you've stalled? 

I have yet to run into any stall situation with the P-38 that wasn't incredibly easy to recover from, which is why this plane is so well suited for stall fighting.  However, like I mentioned above, you have to make sure that 1) your stall recovery is excellent and you can easily identify visually that you're about to stall 2)if you're in a plane that doesn't have a) a gentle stall characteristics and/or (b) easy stall recovery then you do run the very real risk of losing position, angle and/or advantage or crashing. 

Stall fighting is more than just listening to that buzzer.

ack-ack