He-177 Greif

[Wmaker]

The loadouts that people always give it when they ask for it are 12,000-13,000lbs.

Ok. I wonder where they get their figures from (honest question) and what kind of warload does that figure consist of? The highest figure Griel & Dressel list is 9259lbs (4200kg) for the A-7 -variant.

[DEECONX]

Ok. I wonder where they get their figures from (honest question) and what kind of warload does that figure consist of? The highest figure Griel & Dressel list is 9259lbs (4200kg) for the A-7 -variant.

Wikipedia. (honest answer) 

[Wmaker]

Wikipedia. (honest answer)  

Rgr. I knew they were there. It's just that there's no references attached to the figures.

- 10 × 500 kg (1,102 lb) bombs (5,000 kg/11,023 lb total)
- 2 × 1,000 kg (2,204 lb) bombs + 2 × 1,800 kg (3,968 lb) bombs (5,600 kg/12,345 lb total)
- 6 × 1,000 kg (2,204 lb) bombs (6,000 kg/13,227 lb total)

Just by looking at the bomb bays, I think 2x1000kg could be carried in each, so that would be six 1000kg bombs/13,227lb payload.

When talking about AH modelling, it depends what kind of bomb load HTC wants to model. As many know, B-17 for example could carry significantly bigger loads than 600lbs over smaller distancies but didn't really carry such loads in the war.

[Die Hard]

According to Hitler's Luftwaffe (ISBN 0-517-22477-1) the He 177A-5 had an empty weight of 37,038lb, loaded weight of 68,343lb and a maximum internal bomb load of 13,200lb (6000 kg). Top speed is listed as 295 mph.

Despite what Krusty posted the He 177 saw extensive service on the eastern front with about 700 Greifs serving there. The main reason why the aircraft had such a dismal serviceability record is the Luftwaffe's inability to properly support such an advanced aircraft in the field.

[Die Hard]

The 295 mph speed is likely the maximum continuous speed (Höchstzulässige Dauerleistung). Unlike on most allied aircraft the Germans had more than one WEP; Kampfleistung (combat) usually had a 30 minute limit, and Notleistung (emergency) was limited from 3 minutes to over 10 minutes depending on engine. Some engines like the BMW 801D-2 had two Notleistung settings: Normal and increased (with C3 injection). Same with MW50 equipped DBs. What top cruising speed an Aces High He 177 will get depends on what engine setting HTC chooses to model as "military".

[Krusty]

Actually it's more likely that only 200 saw combat. The majority of the combat was over France and the Channel (anti-shipping, where the guided bombs rockets and missiles come in, each weiging about 1400-1600kg and carried externally). Those sorties flown to attack Russian targets were flown from airfields in Germany proper, so they were never really on "the eastern front" ... There were only a few airfields that accomodated the Greif, and these fields were overcrowded without proper revetments or hangars. As such low-level Allied attacks destroyed many Greifs on the ground.

To its credit, the He-177 was the only plane Germany used for mass formation bombing (like Allied bombers did to Germany), but this was not common and done only over Soviet airspace where the speed of the attack and the alt flown (over 20k) meant little to no Soviet interceptors could chase them down.

Still, when flown in this level bomber mode (i.e. no flying bombs/rockets) I believe all ord was carried internally. The max weights are with 2 or 3 guided missiles. Bombs alone would have been less of a payload.


I'd much rather have the Ju-188 (or, wish and dream, the Ju-388) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/Junkers_Ju388L-1.jpg <-- puuuurty!)


P.S. 700 is the number of all A-5s (or was it A-3 and A-5s?) made, so that's not the number that saw combat, and with the majority of Greif combat taking place in France it surely isn't the number flying over Russia.

[Wagger]

It would still be nice to have to increase the number of axis bombers.  But I would not sneeze at the Ju-388

[MiloMorai]

He 177 A-3  - 615    November 1942 - June 1944
He 177 A-5 - 349    December 1943 - August 1944

Total - 1,137, all models

[Die Hard]

My source says: "... 35 pre-production A-0s (built mainly by Arado)", "Arado built 130 A-1s, followed by 170 Heinkel-built A-3s and 826 A-5s with repositioned engines and longer fuselages. About 700 served on the Eastern Front, many having 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting; a few nervously bombed Britain in 400mph shallow dives."

Very close to the same total of airframes Milo, but different distribution of models.

[Grendel]

My source says:
"About 700 served on the Eastern Front, many having 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting; a few nervously bombed Britain in 400mph shallow dives."

What the hell is that kind of source? Bob's Big Book of Airplanes? Some kiddie coloring book?

A few? Nervously bombing? In shallow dives? What....

Ok. During the mini blitz 3./KG 100 was the first Heinkel 177 unit flying against Britain, target London. I./KG100 joined them in these operations. One tactic was to bomb target marked by pathfinders from 5000 meters, flying in 560km/h shallow dive in descent rate of 200m/minute. This was not a "nervous dive" but a very fast speed bombing run that allowed the bombers to hit target in high speed and get out fast, making effective interception very hard. Alongside London, Heinkels targeted for example Hull and Bristol.

And 50mm guns for tank busting? Never happened. 75mm, yes. A-3/R5. Heavy fighter, designed for Anti Air, some sources claim also used for anti tank. Doubtful. Very few build as such, anyway. A-1/U1 was more interesting, twin 30 mm MK101s for anti bomber work.
More interesting versions, if talking about special uses, were A3-/R3 and forward, used as anti shipping missile carriers. Those were nice planes, used for patrolling and anti convoy raids in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.

[Die Hard]

I cited the source earlier: Hitler's Luftwaffe (ISBN 0-517-22477-1).

A number of Greifs were armed with the BK50 cannon in the ventral gondola. Nicknamed the "Stalingradtyp" they were assigned to flak-suppression sorties in the area of Stalingrad during the winter of 1942. A small number were modified to fit the larger BK75, but the airframe couldn't handle the recoil well. Only the BK50 variant saw combat.




The Baby Blitz shallow-dive bombing runs were not "nervous", but the crews were. I think that was the intended meaning of the book-quote.

[bozon]

The Baby Blitz shallow-dive bombing runs were not "nervous", but the crews were. I think that was the intended meaning of the book-quote.

They did this to avoid mosquitoes night fighters. Apparently, this was not fast enough as quite a few were caught and shot down. I vaguely remember something like close to 200 bombers participating and 18 mosquito kills in one night, but don't quote me on that (numbers may be off, maybe not all 177s). Need to check the books.

[Lusche]

They did this to avoid mosquitoes night fighters. Apparently, this was not fast enough as quite a few were caught and shot down. I vaguely remember something like close to 200 bombers participating and 18 mosquito kills in one night, but don't quote me on that (numbers may be off, maybe not all 177s). Need to check the books.

I vaguely remember 177's having the smallest losses of all participating bombers, percentage wise, do to their speed and armor.