Please Fix IL-2 Flight Model When Equipped with 37mm Cannon Package

[waystin2]

Dear HTC,

Please review the flight model of the IL-2 when equipped with the 37mm cannon package.  I submit that the recoil of the now unsychronized cannons is inadequately modeled into it's flight profile.  When firing the 37mm cannons the flight and site picture of the IL-2 was greatly disrupted.  Firing of more than 2-3 cannon shells at one time with accuracy should be impossible.  As currently flown the IL-2 should be near impossible to fly while firing full automatic with the 37mm cannons.  It was found to be more effective when fired sniper style, as opposed to mashing and holding the trigger.

Here is some of my supporting evidence (please bear with I had to translate from Russian website):

Deterioration of handling characteristics of a new attack aircraft, as well as IL-2 with guns  Was associated with a large spacing of the masses of the wing span and the presence of guns fairings, which could affect the overall aerodynamics of the aircraft.  Throughout the range for-2 with NS-37 had the longitudinal stability, which significantly reduces the accuracy of shooting in the air.  Last exacerbated by the strong impact of guns by firing them.  According to the Air Force Research AB CA (letter head of SRI AB, Major-General Mikhail V. Gurevich on 11/19/1943, addressed Ilyushin) the maximum impact force that was in effect for about 0.03 seconds, on ground machine ( existing at the time the equipment will not permit the measurement of "actual recoil force" on airplanes and even more so when shooting in the air) was a very significant amount - about 5500 kg and the average recoil force of approximately equal to 2500 kg. All this led to a large dispersion of projectiles when firing in the air.
 
Field testing conducted at the Research Institute AB Air Force spacecraft showed that the firing of the IL-2 from the NS-37 guns to carry only short bursts no longer than two or three shots, as when firing simultaneously from two guns because of their asynchronism of aircraft experienced a significant shock, peck, and went astray from the line of sight.  Amendment to the aim in this case was basically impossible.
 
When firing from a gun hit the target could only be the first shot, as the attack unfolded in the direction of shooting the gun and aiming at the correction is virtually impossible.  The number of hits to the ammunition expended was 2.98%.

The findings of the report on state tests particularly drew attention to the fact that the flight crews, flying on IL-2, armed with guns NS-37, must undergo special training to conduct aimed fire short bursts of small targets (separate tanks, vehicles, etc . etc.). thirtieth aircraft plant NCAP and OKB-16 was recommended by IEC to urgently establish a cannon muzzle brake.

Phalanx pilots reported that IL-2 AM-38F with two NS-37 cannons, as compared with IL-2, armed with guns or ShVAK of Linguistics, has a greater inertia, impaired mobility and maneuverability, especially at high speeds, significantly increased the radius of the bend and the derivation of a dive at a speed of 340-360 km / h was observed over a large load on the handlebars.
 
However, most of the recoil when firing these guns created considerable difficulties in conducting fire pointwise targets, which are tanks, self-propelled guns, etc., for both pilots having combat experience, and for the young pilots who had just embarked on stream.

Calculations based on the results of range testing and analysis of combat experience shows that well-trained pilot of attack aircraft in the standard terms of planning an attack with an angle of 30 ° with the shooting of the NS-37 guns from a distance of about 300-400 meters could provide a single entry probability the defeat of German medium tank type Pz. IV Ausf G max 0,04-0,07 and armored type Sd Kfz 251 - no higher 0,08-0,17. That is, for the destruction of one unit of armored Wehrmacht firing cannons NS 37 it was necessary to devote at least half a dozen armored "ooze".

Here is the weblink where I found my supporting documentation: 
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=http://www.battlefield.ru/ru/articles/243-il2-vs-panzers.html%3Fstart%3D7&ei=U7_uTMSgEoKBlAf6z5zgDA&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCgQ7gEwAg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.battlefield.ru%2Bil-2%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1R2ADFA_enUS374%26prmd%3Div


Way

[Ghosth]

I'm sorry but I don't see that this is not currently or correctly modeled in AH at this point sir.

It is indeed much more accurate firing single aimed shots than holding the trigger down.

[waystin2]

The accuracy is really a symptom of the larger problem.  Due to the fact that the cannon are not synchronized, each time a cannon fires 2500kgs of recoil push the plane backwards on the specific side of the cannon being fired.  As the firing continues, the pitching and yawing should get worse and affect the ability to fly the plane.  Hence accuracy would suffer accordingly.  This is not modeled into the IL-2 we now have in game.  You can fire the cannon nonstop and not have the recoil adversely affect the flight profile of the plane.

[Karnak]

The guns didn't alternate fire, they simply were not in sync and slightly different rates of fire would cause yawing from kick if the trigger were held down.  The initial shot would come at very close to the same moment, if not the same moment, from both cannons.

[Yeager]

Here's the guncam film of the Stuka armed with 37mm cannon (hence the comparative relationship).  The film suggests both left and right cannon fired simultaneously with a reload time of about 2 seconds.  Im surprised that the IL2 fires out of sync and as rapidly as it does when compared to the german gun.
The game is usually relatively accurate about such things......the apparent lack of recoil and subsequent yaw when firing out of sync may be a gameplay concession.  I dont know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg

[waystin2]

The game is usually relatively accurate about such things......the apparent lack of recoil and subsequent yaw when firing out of sync may be a gameplay concession.  I dont know.

I thought about this, and do concede the point that HTC makes concessions for gameplay reasons.

[Krusty]

You're not going to slam left and right wildly if firing a steady stream. Why not? Because that 2500kg of force is being applied to BOTH wings, albeit staggered. I would imagine it would be far worse if you got only 1 gun to fire (other jammed, perhaps?), but even if it's delayed you still have equal forces impacting both wings. It's just a matter of how much of an impact that left-to-right has.

I think you might have a point, but that you'd have to find out exactly how MUCH back-and-forth there really was.


P.S. The Ju87 guns were entirely different. It's not even something you can compare to the IL2's NS37 guns.

[715]

The site he translated clearly states it messes up the aim.  If the forces aren't synchronized in time, they will cause dynamic oscillation about the yaw axis.  My question is: why on Earth didn't they just add synchronization somehow?

[Ghosth]

Actually if you want you can prove this yourself.

Drop into the TA, up a iL2 with 37mm.
Set .target 600 line up on the center, fire off all your ammo in one long rush.
Look at the pattern, measure it from side to side, top to bottom.

Now reup, now fire off single aimed shots only, make sure each one is aimed correctly.
Measure your pattern again.

I suspect you'll find a considerable difference between the 2 "IF" your honest about it.

If your just looking for something to !#oscar#@% about you won't bother.

[waystin2]

Hello Ghosth,

I never whine post.  I have looked at this info and formed my point over a period of time to make sure that it is solid.  I must say that you are focusing on the firing accuracy, a minor point.  Dispersion is modeled on all aircraft already, so you will see a difference between your two proposed TA scenarios.  I fly both the HurriD and the IL-2 so I am familiar with the short burst accuracy vs. the full auto accuracy of both birds.  The true issue is the planes flight model, which is not currently disrupted by the nonstop firing of the unsynched cannons.  No one has refuted the evidence yet, either with game video or real documents.  I'll gladly take my medicine if this information is found to be incorrect.
 


Way

[bustr]

All of the discussions of the IL2 I found on the internet refrence to Waystin's link or the person has the original source used by Waystin's link. I know the HTC rule on sources. I'm also confident HTC has more sources than Carter has pills.

The information from the reference indicates the amount of yaw introduced by fireing the canons for longer than tapping the trigger starting at 400-300m made it impossible to hold the guns on target for any length of time or precision aiming.

Russians sure were lucky the germans didn't value Whirbels as much as panzers on the eastern front. So a game concession to equitable play might be toning down the recoil problem to allow culling of the Whirbel hoards. Whirbels are a poor mans answer to ACM in Aces High.

[Ghosth]

"I must say that you are focusing on the firing accuracy, a minor point"

The firing accuracy IS the point, the plane is not going to stop flying because your firing your guns.

While firing the guns will effect accuracy, it will not cause the plane to stop flying.

There simply is not enough recoil to totally counteract that big fan in front.

Even with the GAU in the A-10 firing depleted uranium rounds, the plane may slow, or shudder, but it does not stop flying.

[waystin2]

Hello Ghost,

I went back and reread my info.  You are correct that the documentation focuses on ability to maintain site picture.  Bear with me, the flu has a grip on my house and I am dosed to high heaven on Nyquil.    Little fuzzy here.  Here is a question for you:  Do you think that given the above information, that the IL-2 with the large gun package is accurately modeled?  This is sincere, not an A-ha I got you to admit it question.  My feeling is that after flying it, and fighting it, it is not.  As Bozon mentioned in my thread in the Help Forum, the Hurricane IID used to suffer from unsynched cannons to the point of unfliability(new word).  HTC decided to synch the cannons.  Was this a gameplay concession or a flight model that was in error?

 

Way

[321BAR]

You're not going to slam left and right wildly if firing a steady stream. Why not? Because that 2500kg of force is being applied to BOTH wings, albeit staggered. I would imagine it would be far worse if you got only 1 gun to fire (other jammed, perhaps?), but even if it's delayed you still have equal forces impacting both wings. It's just a matter of how much of an impact that left-to-right has.

I think you might have a point, but that you'd have to find out exactly how MUCH back-and-forth there really was.


P.S. The Ju87 guns were entirely different. It's not even something you can compare to the IL2's NS37 guns.

ive had a damaged NS37 before and forced to fire only one of them. You actually do get a kick to the left or right while firing only one of the two guns

[EskimoJoe]

ive had a damaged NS37 before and forced to fire only one of them. You actually do get a kick to the left or right while firing only one of the two guns

Indeed, however I believe Oinkie's point is there isn't enough disruption in yaw when firing both cannons 'trigger down'.

At least, that's what I picked up skimming over the thread.

Though I'd like to see this fixed (Assuming, of course, that this is an issue that may be fixed), I do believe that the cannon recoil/inaccuracy we have currently is a fair balance between life(history) and our game.