Please Fix IL-2 Flight Model When Equipped with 37mm Cannon Package

[321BAR]

Indeed, however I believe Oinkie's point is there isn't enough disruption in yaw when firing both cannons 'trigger down'.

At least, that's what I picked up skimming over the thread.

Though I'd like to see this fixed (Assuming, of course, that this is an issue that may be fixed), I do believe that the cannon recoil/inaccuracy we have currently is a fair balance between life(history) and our game.

yeah i was just backing up krusty's statement. i believe the 37mms have the correct recoil in the game. Now you want recoil use the hurris 40mms

[bustr]

Be carefull asking for accurate realism in this game. HiTech could give it to us.

bustr - Waystin why am I sitting in a B17?
waystin - Don't worry gandpaw you'll like level bombing. It's quiet and sooothing......

Kablooooommmmmmmmm

bustr - Waystin, why did all of my bombs just blow up?
waystin - It's april 1, guess HiTech modeled realism into the ordanence after I whined for it........
bustr - HiTech if you are listening, any plane Waystin flys today blows up on the runway as he is landing. Pleeeeassssssss.....

[Ghosth]

I'll stand on what I originally said, don't take my word for it, go test it for yourself.

Watch where the rounds hit when you hold the trigger down, watch how big the dispersion cone is.
Then repeat with single aimed shots and see how big the spread is.

What you want, is already in there! You already have it!
What it isn't going to do is become radically out of sync in a short burst.
Assuming both guns are loaded, ready they get the fire signal. Gun A on the left is for whatever reason cycling slightly faster than gun B.  BAM they both fire, BAMM they both fire again but the difference between them is small. B fired slightly slower.

ONLY if you hold the trigger down can you eventually perhaps get to a state where its going Bam(a) Bam(b) where it is trying to "walk the dog"

It is just not going to happen with aimed single shots.
It may not happen every sortie.

Just because they "can" get out of sync does not mean they will.
Trust me, when it comes to modeling, very very little gets "adjusted" for gameplay.
This is HT and Pyro's bread and butter, this is what they DO, and they do it very very well.

[JunkyII]

Great OP Waystin.....but the IL2 is like the Brewster, they have die hard fans 

[Charge]

AFAIK the lack of synchronization was also a reason why MK103 pods were considered too inaccurate in FW190. Of course the rate of fire was greater than that of NS37 and the plane was lighter so the effects were greater resulting that the MK103 was scarcely used if at all.

Though I never fire NS37 on full auto anyway...

-C+

[Dr_Death8]

So all this is basically getting to the point that although the site picture does not show it, the gun's accuracy is adjusted to compensate for the buffetting caused by the offset firing sequence.

Also since we don't have the Stuka's with the 37mm, why compare it? 

[waystin2]

So all this is basically getting to the point that although the site picture does not show it, the gun's accuracy is adjusted to compensate for the buffetting caused by the offset firing sequence.

Also since we don't have the Stuka's with the 37mm, why compare it? 

You got it Sir.  I have tested it, attacked vehicles with it, and been attacked by the IL-2 with the NS-37.  It is now my solid opinion that it is incorrectly modeled.  Several folks have somewhat debated my point, but none have been able to refute the provided documentation.

 

Way

[Tec]

So what exactly are you asking for?  You want the plane to fall out of the sky if someone sprays?

[waystin2]

So what exactly are you asking for?  You want the plane to fall out of the sky if someone sprays?

It's what it just about did according to the provided Russian Military Docs.  The pilots themselves preferred the 23mm package as it was more stable.  The plane is not modeled correctly with the NS-37 gun package.  I would like it to be correct.  If it is corrected then the IL-2 will experience difficult handling and increasingly more difficult aiming solutions if the NS-37's are fired non-stop.

 

Way

[Tec]

It's what it just about did according to the provided Russian Military Docs.  The pilots themselves preferred the 23mm package as it was more stable.  The plane is not modeled correctly with the NS-37 gun package.  I would like it to be correct.  If it is corrected then the IL-2 will experience difficult handling and increasingly more difficult aiming solutions if the NS-37's are fired non-stop.

 

Way

By Russian Military Docs. are you referencing the link in your original post?  That is just a google translation of a Russian web page and hardly can be considered primary source documentation.  No where in there do I see anything about the aircraft becoming so unstable as to cause loss of control, and you yourself concede the point that it focuses on the ability to fire accurately. 

What you have provided is a claim, which I do not doubt, that the greatest accuracy was obtained by firing short well placed bursts.  Which most, myself included,  seem to agree is just the way it is in the game.  Based on the below quote I believe you agree with this as well.

I fly both the HurriD and the IL-2 so I am familiar with the short burst accuracy vs. the full auto accuracy of both birds.

The other part of your original argument was that...

As currently flown the IL-2 should be near impossible to fly while firing full automatic with the 37mm cannons.

 
You have provided nothing that backs this claim.

You can spin it all you want, but what you're asking for is the plane to get nerfed without providing anything close to proof that it's wrong.

[waystin2]

You can spin it all you want, but what you're asking for is the plane to get nerfed without providing anything close to proof that it's wrong.

Hello Tec,
This is the same documentation that HTC chose to acknowledge and unsynch the IL-2's guns (see below).  The documentation is vetted.  So I am asking them to take the next step and make the plane's flight model the way it should be.  If you were to take the time to actually read it, you will see the referenced military documents.  This is not some trumped up Wiki like website.  Your challenge no more disproves my position on this than any of the others before.  I feel it is up to HTC or another AH player with knowledge and documentation to disprove my point.  So tell me that it is wrong but back it up.


Here is the link to the Unsynch Thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263890.0.html

I concede your point on the near impossible to fly.  However, flight was impacted by the firing of these cannons in bursts of more than 2-3 shots.  When is the last time ingame that your flight was impacted by mashing down and holding the trigger in the IL-2?  When is the last time you lost the site picture when firing full auto in the IL-2?  Read the info, and test it yourself.
 

Way

[JunkyII]

Hello Tec,
This is the same documentation that HTC chose to acknowledge and unsynch the IL-2's guns (see below).  The documentation is vetted.  So I am asking them to take the next step and make the plane's flight model the way it should be.  If you were to take the time to actually read it, you will see the referenced military documents.  This is not some trumped up Wiki like website.  Your challenge no more disproves my position on this than any of the others before.  I feel it is up to HTC or another AH player with knowledge and documentation to disprove my point.  So tell me that it is wrong but back it up.


Here is the link to the Unsynch Thread:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,263890.0.html

I concede your point on the near impossible to fly.  However, flight was impacted by the firing of these cannons in bursts of more than 2-3 shots.  When is the last time ingame that your flight was impacted by mashing down and holding the trigger in the IL-2?  When is the last time you lost the site picture when firing full auto in the IL-2?  Read the info, and test it yourself.
 

Way

This would make the IL2 HO nearly impossible......LIKE!!!


Be careful of a Tec troll Way......

[Ghosth]

Even the A10, with its 30mm Gattling cannon in the nose does not stop flying when its firing.

Granted it may slow a bit, but it doesn't fall out of the sky.

What you are asking for is modeled, its just the effect is smaller than you think it should be.
So your not seeing it.

I say it again, go back to the TA, use the .target command, fire single shots, fire them all, show the dispersion cone.
Then reload and do it again with the trigger held down.

You'll see the dispersion cone is clearly larger.

And until you run the test yourself, honestly, carefully, you are not going to believe what anyone else says.
Be scientific, be methodical, prove it to yourself one way or the other.
But have an open mind going in, don't disprove it because you don't believe it can be modeled.

[Krusty]

What you are asking for is modeled, its just the effect is smaller than you think it should be.
So your not seeing it.

I concur.

[waystin2]

Hello Ghost,

I conceded the "impossible to fly" issue to Tec earlier and I am focusing instead on the loss of site picture. However the two are woefully intertwined.  

I took your advice on the test Ghost, and your right there is a difference in dispersion.  Dispersion is not the issue, loss of site picture is.  Sources cited say this:
Field testing conducted at the Research Institute AB Air Force spacecraft showed that the firing of the IL-2 from the NS-37 guns to carry only short bursts no longer than two or three shots, as when firing simultaneously from two guns because of their asynchronism of aircraft experienced a significant shock, peck, and went astray from the line of sight.  Amendment to the aim in this case was basically impossible.

This does not happen in your suggested tests, nor does it occur in game.  This does not occur while attack vehicles ingame, and it does not get accurately reflected in your tests.
I ask for an open mind back and ask someone to produce a film where the IL-2 while firing full auto NS-37's loses site picture.  This will disprove my position, and I will gladly step away.

Much respect,

Way