Defeating the defensive barrel roll

[HighGTrn]

Hi all. If anyone has ever fought against AKDogg or Delirium, you know what I'm talking about.

Scenario:

On their 6, moving in for shot. They start to roll and turn, you match their roll to get in phase and start to pull lead. By the time you are within shooting distance, they are under your sights and buried in your dash (ie.. you cant see them anymore). You fire only to see them climbing and rolling completely out of phase with you. Does a lag roll work in this situation?

Thanks.

[grizz441]

When I see this being set up, i will usually stay high and try to lag pursuit with them initially, avoiding getting sucked into a nose down crossing shot.  If they are able to cut throttle effectively and still set a shot up, i will usually attempt to dodge it by going vertical and then coming down for th kill.  Other times I will lag pursuit first, then cut throttle and commit;  it kind of depends what the plane matchup is.

[HighGTrn]

I usually do this if I know its someone who knows and can do this. Problem is I don't know its gonna happen till I get in close and its too late to lag roll. I guess I can feint a commit from a long way out and see what they do.

[grizz441]

I usually do this if I know its someone who knows and can do this. Problem is I don't know its gonna happen till I get in close and its too late to lag roll. I guess I can feint a commit from a long way out and see what they do.

Well if you react late to it, don't commit,  just keep nose up and go into a low G high spiral climb avoiding the nose of their aircraft in your upward view.  Spiral up into the appex of your rope, and they will most likely never get a shot and will not have enough speed to hang.

[mechanic]

I'll do the same as Grizz mentioned. One of two things, usualy.

1) stay fast and don't go for the shot on the first pass. Watch for them to start the barrel roll and break away to thier 'belly side' slightly before climbing again. This will make it difficult for them to connect a snapshot. If you turn towards thier 'top side' then they have much better odds of making a reversal shot. The goal for me in this situation is to make the enemy think I am scared to commit. They will be expecting my second attack to be similar, at which point I would hope to switch it up and go to option 2).

2) Cut your power and glide into the attack. Remember that 300 yards is clsoe enough for accurate gunenry, and closure should be almost halted by that range if the intention is to saddle up for a shot. The main factor that helps the defender is speed differential between themself and the attacker. The lower the attacker's speed, the longer they have to fire and the harder the defender must evade to stay safe. The make or break aspect of this method is in your gunnery. If you can hit them, you win. If you miss, you may be sucking yourself into a losing battle.

To stay 100% safe there is only one true method. Leave them alone

[HighGTrn]

I'll do the same as Grizz mentioned. One of two things, usualy.

1) stay fast and don't go for the shot on the first pass. Watch for them to start the barrel roll and break away to thier 'belly side' slightly before climbing again. This will make it difficult for them to connect a snapshot. If you turn towards thier 'top side' then they have much better odds of making a reversal shot. The goal for me in this situation is to make the enemy think I am scared to commit. They will be expecting my second attack to be similar, at which point I would hope to switch it up and go to option 2).

2) Cut your power and glide into the attack. Remember that 300 yards is clsoe enough for accurate gunenry, and closure should be almost halted by that range if the intention is to saddle up for a shot. The main factor that helps the defender is speed differential between themself and the attacker. The lower the attacker's speed, the longer they have to fire and the harder the defender must evade to stay safe. The make or break aspect of this method is in your gunnery. If you can hit them, you win. If you miss, you may be sucking yourself into a losing battle.

To stay 100% safe there is only one true method. Leave them alone

What fun would that be? 

[Ardy123]

What I like to do when I see someone start a BRD, is I lag turn behind them but not exactly in the same plane as them, instead if they go for a flat turn prior to them pulling up, I begin a high yo-yo (with the throttle low), then as their nose pulls up, I roll down and as my nose is falling and I take the shot. All to often, they go boom.

Also this tactic works great if they decide to just break turn or go into luftberries, as I will be able to turn with them by going out of plane.

[JunkyII]

It depends on my E state compared to his. I will chop throttle if Im not far off his E, trying to saddle him in the roll but you have to watch out if you have too much and it enters rolling scissors you may be in a losing fight and same the other way......he ropes you becdause you chopped too much.

If I have alot of E Ill just pull away to the belly side of his plane then just roll over and come at him again till I burn his E off.

[mechanic]

What fun would that be? 

no fun at all!

[grizz441]

It depends on my E state compared to his. I will chop throttle if Im not far off his E, trying to saddle him in the roll but you have to watch out if you have too much and it enters rolling scissors you may be in a losing fight and same the other way......he ropes you becdause you chopped too much.

If I have alot of E Ill just pull away to the belly side of his plane then just roll over and come at him again till I burn his E off.

It's the angle you enter at.  If you cut him off at a cross, it won't matter if you cut throttle, you will get reversed.  That's why it is important to lag pursuit him, try to bend around him and cut throttle.  Works very well.  One of the only situations that setting up a crossing angle in a tater ride is a bad decision

[Yenny]

You normally have three options:

1. Reduce throttle and try to saddle. (Pending on your aircraft)
2. Hit wep and climb out and hammer head back down.
3. Try to set up a quick snap shot and climb out(what I normally do w/ the K4)

[maddafinga]

I usually try to mis-time my break and roll so that I get shot and lose a wing or an engine.  I find that simplifies it greatly for me.

Also, many other times I'm below the bad guy, so I avoid having to defeat the BRD by not diving down on guys. 

I know that the getting killed over and over takes a lot of patience and dedication, and it's not for everyone granted.  But you eventually get a taste for it and don't even mind dying at all anymore.

[mtnman]

I like it best if my opponent chops throttle, and either tries to saddle up on me or tries to roll with me in lag, so I'd recommend going with other options than that.

What makes the BRD the most challenging is an opponent who just refuses to play along (by just passing through, avoiding my guns, and reacquiring his perch for another attack).  If he does that, I need to set it all up again, and again, burning E and time in the process.

Keep in mind, the guy using the BRD aggressively really doesn't want a drastic speed differential between himself and his attacker.  What he wants instead is to be nearly as fast as his attacker, but with exaggerated closure.  The defender regulates the closure by adjusting his angle-off, getting his attacker to approach from some amount of side angle.

The beauty of that tactic is that as he finishes his roll and places himself on your six, he's at almost the same speed as his attacker, which allows for a nice shot.  If the attacker cuts speed, he sets himself up to fall into this trap.  About the only thing he could do worse would be to attempt a rope as he finds himself out front of the defender. 

There's a significant difference between the "defender" who uses the BRD defensively (by slowing down compared to his attacker), and the one who uses it aggressively to snatch his attackers scalp (by keeping his speed up in relation to his attacker).  In the first case, slowing your attack, rolling along in lag, etc might work quite well.  In the second case though, that "defender" probably has a big smile on his face as he watches you out of his high rear view, then high side-rear, then side rear, then dropping below/behind his tail, only to pop out in his high opposite-side six, then directly below him as he's inverted, then in his up-front view following a path right through his cross-hairs (but he'll shoot you before you get to his cross-hairs).

[JunkyII]

I like it best if my opponent chops throttle, and either tries to saddle up on me or tries to roll with me in lag, so I'd recommend going with other options than that.

What makes the BRD the most challenging is an opponent who just refuses to play along (by just passing through, avoiding my guns, and reacquiring his perch for another attack).  If he does that, I need to set it all up again, and again, burning E and time in the process.

Keep in mind, the guy using the BRD aggressively really doesn't want a drastic speed differential between himself and his attacker.  What he wants instead is to be nearly as fast as his attacker, but with exaggerated closure.  The defender regulates the closure by adjusting his angle-off, getting his attacker to approach from some amount of side angle.

The beauty of that tactic is that as he finishes his roll and places himself on your six, he's at almost the same speed as his attacker, which allows for a nice shot.  If the attacker cuts speed, he sets himself up to fall into this trap.  About the only thing he could do worse would be to attempt a rope as he finds himself out front of the defender. 

There's a significant difference between the "defender" who uses the BRD defensively (by slowing down compared to his attacker), and the one who uses it aggressively to snatch his attackers scalp (by keeping his speed up in relation to his attacker).  In the first case, slowing your attack, rolling along in lag, etc might work quite well.  In the second case though, that "defender" probably has a big smile on his face as he watches you out of his high rear view, then high side-rear, then side rear, then dropping below/behind his tail, only to pop out in his high opposite-side six, then directly below him as he's inverted, then in his up-front view following a path right through his cross-hairs (but he'll shoot you before you get to his cross-hairs).

MtnMan you dont have a trainer tag anymore?!?!? Awesome explanation sir

[mechanic]

Great post MTN, you are spot on with the last paragraph about what an aggressive BRD user will be aiming for and thinking as the attacker dumps E.

 The feeling I got from the OP was that he was tierd of simply not being able to saddle up without being reversed. If that is the case, the desire to fight for a kill not just make a high speed pass is there, then perhaps dumping E and trying to get equal or just slower than your target is still the best option.