Author Topic: PCI SSD vs SATA 3  (Read 14507 times)

Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« on: December 11, 2010, 08:14:16 AM »
Benched a PCIe SSD (OCZ RevoDRIVE-2 240GB) against a SATA-3 (Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64mb cache).  the results were dramatic to say the least.  The OCZ comes with its own Raid array installed.  It uses 4 Sandforce Controllers and the best part is this SSD is boot-able (Yes other SSD's are boot-able via SATA but this is PCIe).

The system its in has two drives, the RevoDrive and a SATA-3.  When the SATA-3 is disabled within the BIOS the system boots from power on to desktop in less then 20 seconds, when the SATA-3 is enabled the boot time is about 30 seconds.  Reason for this is the Marvell drivers for the SATA-3 (EVGA MB).  Below is a speed chart done with ATTO comparing the two drives.

Sandforce technology has been around for some time now.  It cycles the flash to extend its endurance by 20x, therefore making any Sandforce SSD a wise investment (SSD drives, Flash Drives).

Benefits of Sandforce over other controllers...
- Durawrite
- RAISE (Redundant Array of Independent Silicon Elements)
- Wear Leveling and Monitoring
- Advance Read/Program Disturb management
- Recycler

So if your thinking of a super fast system, look at PCIe SSD drives as an option (no they are not cheep).


Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 08:45:36 AM »
As you and I have discussed a couple of times already, the PCI-e is the ONLY SSD I'd get.    :rock
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline skribetm

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 781
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 12:28:47 PM »
wait, wait. SSD's have a trick called RAID0.  :D
(although write speeds are only ~150MB/s better.)



>atto run






Offline maddafinga

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1400
      • The Musketeers Squadron
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 05:12:27 PM »
As you and I have discussed a couple of times already, the PCI-e is the ONLY SSD I'd get.    :rock

Totally off topic, I love the new avatar Karaya! 

Nice that it's got a good long shot or Rick Wright in there too, he was brilliant. 

[/hijack]
madda
The Musketeers Squadron
http://www.musketeers.org/
When the Dude is recognized in the World, Undudeness is seen everywhere... Dude De Ching
http://dudeism.com/tao/

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 06:18:52 PM »
@TD (OP): Wait a minute. You have to be a little more specific or people are going to make the wrong choices here.

First off the SSDs come in four different flavors. The first is the stand alone SSD which is not mounted on a card and which TD is not talking about.

Second is the type of SSD which is card mounted memory (basically). This is very much just a RAMdrive that doesnt lose its memory when the power is off. This is very fast in I/O and allows for many more I/Os (in most cases) than any other form of SSD (100000 IOPS+).

Third (and fourth actually) is the SSD mounted to a card. The third type is a lone SSD mounted to a card. It has a faster read/write but because its I/O is 10% or less of the card mounted memory method it makes for a choice that is not as good for boot operations or complex game forms like FSX due to the 10,000 IOPS limitations (on average). Defrag of one of these drives could very well kill it (lower its lifeteime use).

The fourth type is very much what we want (or so I believe) and is fairly much a new arrival on the scene. The SSDs in this case are mounted in a RAID configuration and this is where the read/write speed really takes off but IOPS drop again to a give-or-take 7200+. Defrag of one of these drives could very well kill it (lower its lifetime use).

When the fourth type is $100 for a TB of space things will look a lot better than they do now with 1 TB costing an average of $9000.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline Spite

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 102
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 08:04:06 PM »
Should probably add that the 'third type' will be very much motherboard dependent as to whether it will even boot.  A lot of motherboards do not support booting from PCIe.

The OP was careful to state that the OCZ drive in question was an R2 drive, 240GB.  They also sell a non-R2 240Gb (cheaper) version and the warnings on the page for it from OCZ are clear ... do your homework, and make sure your mobo supports booting from PCIe.

Wicked fast drives though ...

Offline FLOTSOM

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2822
      • http://www.myspace.com/prfctstrngr
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2010, 08:38:08 PM »
why does defrag?ging kill these drives? wont not defragging make them slow down over time and lose the advantage in speed that you paid so much money for?
FLOTSOM

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!
Quote from Skuzzy
"The game is designed to encourage combat, not hide from it."
http://www.myspace.com/prfctstrngr

Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2010, 09:55:50 PM »
@TD (OP): Wait a minute. You have to be a little more specific or people are going to make the wrong choices here.

In what way?  I was very specific in my post...

Benched a PCIe SSD (OCZ RevoDRIVE-2 240GB) against a SATA-3 (Western Digital Caviar Black 1TB 64mb cache).  the results were dramatic to say the least.  The OCZ comes with its own Raid array installed.  It uses 4 Sandforce Controllers and the best part is this SSD is boot-able (Yes other SSD's are boot-able via SATA but this is PCIe).

I did not go into a lesson about the different SSDs available on the market.  I mentioned two specific drives, one being the RevoDrive-2 (mentioning the advantage of Sandforce Technology) and the WD SATA-3. I further mentioned that this particular SSD is PCIe and is boot-able, not all PCIe SSD's are boot-able.  This post was a comparison of SATA-3 and a particular PCIe SSD, nothing more.  Please explain where the confusion is, because I am confused as to where there is confusion.



Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2010, 10:06:57 PM »
why does defrag?ging kill these drives? wont not defragging make them slow down over time and lose the advantage in speed that you paid so much money for?
When you defrag your moving data from one sector to a another and aligning the data.  Currently SSD's can not be written to as many times and a platter based drive (SATA).  So when you defrag your lessening the life of the drive by moving and re-writing.  Hence me commenting on the Sandforce Technology.  They have seemed to have built a better "mouse trap" as they say.

Quote from Sandforce's website.
(QUOTE)
DuraClass technology represents a set of NAND flash management features that work in tandem to deliver world-class SSD reliability, performance, and power efficiency that differentiate SandForce SSD Processors from standard flash controllers. Of particular importance is the use of processing elements to optimally overcome a number of the inherent issues associated with commodity NAND flash memory. DuraClass features include:

    * DuraWrite, which optimizes the number of program cycles to the flash effectively extending flash rated endurance by 20x or more when compared to standard controllers.
    * Powerful flash media error correction (ECC) and RAISE (Redundant Array of Independent Silicon Elements), which deliver an orders-of-magnitude improvement in drive
       reliability versus today’s best enterprise HDDs and SSDs. The result is single-drive RAID-like protection and recovery from a potentially catastrophic flash block failures – all
       while avoiding the inefficiencies of traditional RAID.
    * Advanced Wear Leveling and Monitoring - Optimized wear leveling algorithms, further extending flash endurance
    * Advanced Read/Program Disturb Management, which safeguards against errant re-programming of cells during read and program cycles
    * Recycler, which intelligently performs garbage collection with the least impact on flash endurance.

With smaller silicon geometries and the trend toward packing more bits per cell in flash devices, there has been a dramatic reduction in the cost-per-Gigabyte for NAND flash-based SSDs which has accelerated deployment in mainstream applications. However, these changes have also reduced the reliability characteristics of flash devices, i.e., lower endurance, worse data integrity, and shorter data retention, placing increasing importance on advanced flash management technology. DuraClass technology is architected to scale and compensate for commodity NAND flash memory shortcomings ensuring SSDs can be reliably used in enterprise and client computing environments for generations to come.
(END QUOTE)
  You can Google "Sandforce" and learn more about who they are and what they are doing to improve the technology used in memory.

Hope this helped

TD

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2010, 10:51:27 PM »
What I meant was that you need to let people know about the differences in the technologies. Also it might be a good idea to point out that the Revo2 is not commonly compatible especially with older systems. Its actually my favorite form of SSD but it is not compatible with the majority of boards I have in the house while the type four I mentioned would probably be better for my needs its also nine times the expense.

Now if you have tested it (the Revo2) with every setup you sell Id like to know the outcome.
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.

Offline FLOTSOM

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2822
      • http://www.myspace.com/prfctstrngr
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2010, 12:20:50 AM »
still confused cause its written in swahealie.....but understanding a bit more :)

thanx  :aok
FLOTSOM

Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups!
Quote from Skuzzy
"The game is designed to encourage combat, not hide from it."
http://www.myspace.com/prfctstrngr

Offline Masherbrum

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 22408
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2010, 09:15:31 PM »
Totally off topic, I love the new avatar Karaya! 

Nice that it's got a good long shot or Rick Wright in there too, he was brilliant. 

[/hijack]

 :rock

 :devil
-=Most Wanted=-

FSO Squad 412th FNVG
http://worldfamousfridaynighters.com/
Co-Founder of DFC

Offline TilDeath

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
      • TD Computer Systems
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2010, 05:23:09 PM »
What I meant was that you need to let people know about the differences in the technologies.
Why, this was a simple drive comparison, nothing more.  If I were comparing several different SSD and SATA drives then I would include the difference in the technologies.

Also it might be a good idea to point out that the Revo2 is not commonly compatible especially with older systems.
Again, why? This is a $700.00 component.  I was comparing technologies that are new or not used commonly yet.  If someone has a Pentium 4 and wants to install a $700.00 drive before upgrading their system overall, something is wrong.  A good analogy would be " Bias Ply tires on a dragster".

Now if you have tested it (the Revo2) with every setup you sell Id like to know the outcome.
Every system I build is within a customers budget.  Not everyone can afford a RevoDrive 2 as their system's main drive.

Point being, my original post was showing the speed difference between a particular PCIe SSD drive that is boot-able on the MB the system was built with and the SATA 3 that is also installed on the same system.  The post was not a lesson in the different type of technology available today.  Feel free speak about the different technologies available, but please do not tell me how to compose my posts.

TD

Offline Dragon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • AH JUGS
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2010, 05:23:33 PM »
Why, this was a simple drive comparison, nothing more.  If I were comparing several different SSD and SATA drives then I would include the difference in the technologies.
Again, why? This is a $700.00 component.  I was comparing technologies that are new or not used commonly yet.  If someone has a Pentium 4 and wants to install a $700.00 drive before upgrading their system overall, something is wrong.  A good analogy would be " Bias Ply tires on a dragster".
Every system I build is within a customers budget.  Not everyone can afford a RevoDrive 2 as their system's main drive.

Point being, my original post was showing the speed difference between a particular PCIe SSD drive that is boot-able on the MB the system was built with and the SATA 3 that is also installed on the same system.  The post was not a lesson in the different type of technology available today.  Feel free speak about the different technologies available, but please do not tell me how to compose my posts.

TD

+1
SWchef  Lieutenant Colonel  Squadron Training Officer  125th Spartan Warriors

Offline Chalenge

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15179
Re: PCI SSD vs SATA 3
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2010, 06:11:24 PM »
Again, why?

I dont know. Intellectual honesty? Even newer MBs are having problems with this device and until new BIOSs are available thats not going to change.

Not everyone buys from you. Do you really want someone to buy this and then say TD said it was all that and... meh...
If you like the Sick Puppy Custom Sound Pack the please consider contributing for future updates by sending a months dues to Hitech Creations for account "Chalenge." Every little bit helps.