Panther AAMG elevation increase needed

[TDeacon]

Our new Panther G tank looks great!  

However, the AAMG doesn't currently allow a prototypical degree of elevation, which from the following image, should be at least 60 degrees.  The current AH Panther's AAMG elevation is at most 35 degrees.  Look at prototype photos, such as the following:
http://home.comcast.net/~mark.hinds/misc_online_storage_dir/Panther_AAMG.jpg

Additionally, I don't think the sky arcs covered were limited by the extent of the mounting rail.  I believe that the gun could be rotated/traversed to a significant degree from anywhere on the mounting rail, assuming one is willing to stretch one's upper body a bit.  Consider the analogous situation on a Sherman, where the mount point is fixed, but the gun can still be rotated through 360 degrees.  

Fixing these is particularly important, given the Panther's high perk cost, and the prevalence of aircraft attacks in the MA.  

[321BAR]

makes good sense. would this be wishlist though? this doesnt seem to be a bug

[TDeacon]

321Bar:  I assume that HTC will let me know if they want this in Wishlist.  I put it here because it is a flaw in the original implementation, which might be easy for them to fix now along with the other(s). 

Below is supplementary information (from an Internet Armor enthusiasts website) indicating that the cupola MG could pivot at any point along the C-shaped mounting rail.  (Thus it should probably be modeled with 360 degree traverse, as in our Panzer IV.  Note that a prototype Panzer IV either had a single fixed mount point, or the same C-shaped mount rail as the Panther.)  Quote below:

<quote>
While doing research on late war German armor -- late Panzer IV, Panthers, and Tigers -- photos showed they often mounted either an MG-34 or MG-42 on the cupola for the commander.  On Tigers with the early cupola or Panzer IV or Panther D, this took the form of a swing arm that attached to the cupola itself.  On late Tigers and Panthers with the "standardized" cupola, there was a C-shaped ring attached to the top of the periscopes for the AA mount.

The mount iself had a clamp ring, bracket, and roller arrangement that allowed the mount to slide about the C-ring.  There was a latch lever in front of the clamp ring that allowed the V-shaped support rails holding the machine gun to elevate or depress.  There was also a latch on the right side rail to hold the gun from flopping about when not in use.  At the tip of the V-support rails was a pivoting post with a semicircular ring.  This ring attached to a matching cutout on the barrel jacket (where it joins the rear receiver) of the MG-34 or MG-42.  This is a universal attachment point for various other mountings of the machine gun in other roles. 

On the left side of the supporting V-rail are a pair of metal brackets.  These brackets support a cloth cartridge bag (probably about 100 rounds).  Alternatively, either MG-34 or MG-42 gun could be fitted with a snail drum magazine that clipped to the left side of the gun.  This drum held a belt of 50-rounds.
<unquote>

[Superfly]

The traverse will stay the same on the Panther.  If we made it pivot as it did in real life on the V-support rails, it would be very weird to do in game.  We don't have a way to do it correctly.  In other words, you would be floating in the air in a very unrealistic fashion.  You're just going to have to accept this as a quirk of the Panther.

The pitch, however, will be fixed for the next patch.

[321BAR]

The traverse will stay the same on the Panther.  If we made it pivot as it did in real life on the V-support rails, it would be very weird to do in game.  We don't have a way to do it correctly.  In other words, you would be floating in the air in a very unrealistic fashion.  You're just going to have to accept this as a quirk of the Panther.

The pitch, however, will be fixed for the next patch.

<S> and i was wondering quickly. It looked like an MG42 on the panther. is it?

[TDeacon]

Superfly,

Thanks for acknowledging the elevation/pitch issue. :-)

However, note that the traverse/rotation issue may be easily fixable as well.

The prototypes of most of our AH tanks had their AAMG mounted at a fixed point (Sherman and mid-war Germans), or on a C-rail as modeled in the new Panther. Yet, we have a game mechanism which allows 360 degree traverse of the AAMG for all tanks prior to the new Panther. For the Sherman, the game rotates the entire cupola with the MG mount point attached, through 360 degrees. For the Tiger and Panzer IV, just the AAMG is rotated 360 degrees around the rim of the cupola, (despite the fact that these German tanks had either fixed point mounting, or the same C-rail as in the Panther G).  These game graphical solutions are of course an abstraction of reality, but one which nobody has had an issue with. Especially for the late-war German rail-mounted AAMGs, this is certainly more realistic from a game play perspective than allowing them to only fire in a limited direction.  That's because, in reality, these German AAMGs could also be pivoted around the mount point, per my comment earlier in this thread, thus giving essentially 360 degree coverage. 

My point is that you could extend this existing game mechanism to the new Panther. You retain the current Panther cupola modeling, but rotate the AAMG and its bracket 360 degrees around the cupola (as a separate object) as in the current Tiger and Panzer IV.  You could use essentially the same code, couldn't you? Visually almost identical to the current Panther implementation, and much better from a game-play perspective.

An important secondary benefit of doing it this way is that it would allow the Panther commander to scan the terrain around him under magnification, as on all other tanks. Currently, a Panther commander is only able to do this over the arc of the C-rail. Scanning under magnification is an important vehicular SA mechanism.

(modified numerous times to correct factual errors; sorry about that...)

[Superfly]

Santa may come early for you this year.

[Tigger29]

I went to COLLEGE!

Seriously though... although I don't understand a word you're saying, it sounds impressive and might just work!

If only I had been motivated just a tad bit more as a kid. . .

[Dr_Death8]

Seriously though... although I don't understand a word you're saying, it sounds impressive and might just work!

If only I had been motivated just a tad bit more as a kid. . .

Don't feel bad, I got my BSB and working on my MBA and I have no clue. Think he is an engineer...

[Superfly]

There are plenty of idiots with college degrees and geniuses who are high school dropouts.  Don't feel bad. 

[JunkyII]

Just using my knowledge for gun mounts on vechicles in the military of today....all American vechicles would beable to point up like that.


"Never point your weapon at anything you dont wish to destroy"  We are told to point the guns up while in garrison/area where alot of friendly's are.

[Dr_Death8]

There are plenty of idiots with college degrees and geniuses who are high school dropouts.  Don't feel bad. 

Thanks, but I fall more into the second crowd as I did 8+yrs Army starting at 17 then 9yrs driving OTR. Just started college at 38. Got AAB first, then BSB/ISCOM, now MBA. Will be 42 Dec 31st.

[Dr_Death8]

Just using my knowledge for gun mounts on vechicles in the military of today....all American vechicles would beable to point up like that.


"Never point your weapon at anything you dont wish to destroy"  We are told to point the guns up while in garrison/area where alot of friendly's are.

I understand where you are talking about as most of my Army time was medic supporting tank battalions/ heavy divisions. Although they were always centrally mounted on a pivot point, the pivot point could rotate the full 360 degrees around the copula. Now it could point up a good 75-85 degrees, the issue is that to fire it you would need to be down inside the copula as the firing handles would be so far down on the deck. At least on the M113A2 and M1A1. 

[Tigger29]

There are plenty of idiots with college degrees and geniuses who are high school dropouts.  Don't feel bad. 

Haha true that.

I was actually dumber than most, turning DOWN an Full Engineering Scholarship my senior year of high school... but to be fair I was completely burned out of school (which tends to happen when you work more than full time from the age of 13 while trying to maintain a 3.5+ GPA) and my parents weren't exactly supportive of me continuing my education, with a mom who is master of the guilt trips and a dad with a 'don't rock the boat' attitude.

Kind of sucks looking back, but that's not exactly contributing to this thread any, is it?