More Differentiation Between Country Specific Ordnance

[SmokinLoon]

The explosive filler was about 107 lbs (roughly about 1/3rd of the explosive filling of a British 1000lbs GP bomb)

However, the effects of cannon shells and ordnance (bombs & rockets) are not to scale. They are two distinct categories, with all gun damage being exaggerated compared to bombs (&rockets):

A 1000lbs bomb does 100lbs of damage against a single structure (a hangar for example), but a single .50 cal from a GV 1,25lbs, a 20mm Hispano 4.03 lbs, a 88mm 243lbs.

You mean 1000lbs does 1000lbs of damage, not 100lbs, right???  I'm guessing it is a typo, just making sure. 

[Lusche]

You mean 1000lbs does 1000lbs of damage, not 100lbs, right???  I'm guessing it is a typo, just making sure.  

Yes, typo


And

The 28cm rockets had 4.46kg of TNT, that is over 4X the amount of explosives in the HE round of either the Tiger or T34/85.

Isn't correct either, the explosive load was about ten times bigger - 50kg!

[SmokinLoon]

Yes, typo


And

Isn't correct either, the explosive load was about ten times bigger - 50kg!

oops... I misread a decimal place, my bad.... AND a typo on my record as well!     The 28cm rocket had, according to 2 printed sources, 45.4kg worth of TNT.   

Metric conversions be damned!  Cant the world just do things right and use SAE? 

[RTHolmes]

However, the effects of cannon shells and ordnance (bombs & rockets) are not to scale. They are two distinct categories, with all gun damage being exaggerated compared to bombs (&rockets):

A 1000lbs bomb does 1000lbs of damage against a single structure (a hangar for example), but a single .50 cal from a GV 1,25lbs, a 20mm Hispano 4.03 lbs, a 88mm 243lbs.

so the Sdk rockets are being modelled on the same scale as air-launched ords, not as ground-launched ords (which seem to be about 5x the damage of the air-launched equivalent)? ie. like a 200lb bomb?

relative to the other HE tanks rounds I reckon it should be ~1,600lb damage.

[SmokinLoon]

so the Sdk rockets are being modelled on the same scale as air-launched ords, not as ground-launched ords (which seem to be about 5x the damage of the air-launched equivalent)? ie. like a 200lb bomb?

relative to the other HE tanks rounds I reckon it should be ~1,600lb damage.

Only HTC knows how the numbers for the 28cm rockets were dealt.  It appears though that the 28cm rockets most certainly are not modeled the same as the other rockets in respect to explosive amount and damage delivered.  The 4.5 inch rockets had 1.95kg worth of explosives and it has a damage value of 93.  I'll have to look up the info on the other rocket in AH. 

[RTHolmes]

The 4.5 inch rockets had 1.95kg worth of explosives and it has a damage value of 93.

sure about the 1.95kg? the equivalent brit 3" RP-3 (mossies, typhies etc) had a 60lb warhead, so maybe 30lb of charge?


very cool guncam of a salvo of RP-3s from a 181sqn typhie

[SmokinLoon]

sure about the 1.95kg? the equivalent brit 3" RP-3 (mossies, typhies etc) had a 60lb warhead, so maybe 30lb of charge?


very cool guncam of a salvo of RP-3s from a 181sqn typhie
(Image removed from quote.)

Thanks for bringing up another point: HTC is using the 3.5 in rocket for their British aircraft, but yet those seem to be a conversion from a US rocket and Soviet rocket (M8 and RS82), and far more rare on RAF/FFA aircraft (and less effective) than the 3in/60lb rocket that the British normally used.  Also, what rocket warhead does AH have represented???  Presumably all of the air to ground rockets in AH are of the HE type, save for the German Pb1, but which type (GP, SAP, HE)?  Hence, my wish for having the ammo type spelled out in the hanger.         

[E25280]

That is interesting test data.  I was always under the impression that the LVT-4 did, in fact, have a better HE round in game vs. the panzer.  Either that was inadvertently changed, or it is a good example that one's personal experiences are not necessarily accurate reflections of game design.

[SmokinLoon]

That is interesting test data.  I was always under the impression that the LVT-4 did, in fact, have a better HE round in game vs. the panzer.  Either that was inadvertently changed, or it is a good example that one's personal experiences are not necessarily accurate reflections of game design.

I don't think anything was changed for the LVT-4's HE damage.  I have a print out off the AH Trainer's website from a few years ago and it has the T34/76mm, LVT4 75mm, and the Pzr IV 75mm in one group with 156.2 damage.  A big advantage the LVT-4 has vs any other HE vessel is the rate of fire and the trajectory.  The ability to lob shells into the target area is often over looked.  Being able to shoot over buildings and hedgerows does have it merits.

[SmokinLoon]

No more comment from HTC regarding the issue?   

[Pyro]

We are actually doing some stuff in this area right now.  There are some obvious discrepancies that have been pointed out like the 75mm on the LVT and the 28cm rockets on the SdKfz 251.  The rockets especially should get some review.  I'll take a look at some HE figures as it does need some review but I concur with RTHolmes on the problems of just trying to use explosive filler weights to determine damage.  It's a very useful thing to consider but it clearly creates discrepancies when taken at face value.  I think something like that may work out better for handling rocket damage.

To give another example of the M4's 75mm, here's a comparison to the 90mm.  The 90mm shell had 2.04 lbs of TNT to the 1.47 lbs of TNT in the 75mm.  Yet the following data shows the 75mm doing slightly better.





On bombs, I intentionally want to keep it simple.  The only things we are changing there is adding more bomb shapes to get everything looking correct and putting in a couple new classes of bombs.  Right now everything we have is treated as a general purpose bomb which most of them are.  We're going to add armor piercing bombs and light case/high capacity bombs as new classes of bombs.  In game, the AP bombs will simply do a lot more damage on direct hits but have a vastly diminished blast radius compared to GP bombs.  They'll be available on the dive bombers.  The light case/high capacity bombs are the opposite with less direct damage and more blast radius compared to GP bombs.  The 1800 kg bomb on the Stuka and the 4000 lb cookie are examples of this kind of bomb.  This will be a good bomb choice for clustered targets like towns and cities but not as good for a single hard target like the HQ.

[Beefcake]

Nice AP bombs! What about Para Frags? Mr. B25C really needs para frags.

[LLogann]

Your that anti-grunt?

[Saxman]

Any chance of a centerline 2000lber or DT option coming for the D-Hog...?

[SmokinLoon]

I was re-reading this thread and I realized I forgot something:

to say "thanks" to Pyro for responding with the update.      

It will be good to have a damage update for the some of the HE shells, especially for the 28cm rockets from the SdKfz 251.  If the 28cm rockets were to have their accuracy decreased, an increase the damage (enough to destroy a typical OBJ that needs 312 lbs worth of ordnance), and perhaps increase the splash damage area (enough to take out 2-4 town buildings in one impact), I believe it would be more accurate to the real thing than what we currently have.

With regards to the 75mm vs 90mm, I'm no chemist or explosives expert, but one could reasonably assert that there are only 2 things that could cause such a minor difference in damages between charges that are %25 different: the quality or mix of the TNT/explosives and the metallurgy, design, or "stoutness" of the HE casing.  Also, perhaps the original intention of the design plays an important part in how it performs.  The bigger-faster-stronger round may not mean better.   

Again, thanks for the update.  I, along with many other AH stalwarts look forward to the updates!!!