Author Topic: Net Neutrality  (Read 1611 times)

Offline Stoney

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Net Neutrality
« on: December 20, 2010, 09:22:17 AM »
Gents,

I'm having trouble cutting through a lot of the static over this issue.  Is there someone who can post a politically neutral, basic synopsis of the issue so I can understand exactly what this means?
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Offline Tac

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2010, 11:11:47 AM »
In a nutshell it means that data flow on the internet cannot be discriminated.

The current problem is that companies that are ISP's like AT&T want to be able to shut off data flow to certain parties if its convenient for their business.

The best example now is Netflix vs. ISP . Netflix has a massive bandwith usage since they stream movies. Netflix pays their ISP for access to the net. That ISP in turn is connected to a big ISP which has the backbone access to the internet (a company like AT&T). ISP pays AT&T a connection fee for that link.

AT&T thinks that since the data is flowing through their lines, that they should have the right to lower the bandwith or shut it off altogether in order to benefit AT&T's direct customers. In short, they say that those that pay AT&T directly should have priority and everyone else gets what's left. They argue that netflix is profiting greatly from using AT&T's infrastructure while paying AT&T nothing.. regardless of the fact that ISP pays AT&T a fee for the connection. From what I understand that fee is sort of a 'bulk' rate which is standard between ISP's but netflix is not an ISP and is gaining a lot of money.

More fuel to the fire is AT&T wants to get into the movie streaming market too so it bites them to see netflix using their infrastructure to compete against AT&T's online movie services.

So AT&T wants to either charge netflix or the ISP a big fee to compensate for that or if possible, lobby so that congress allows them to degrade netflix's bandwith in order to benefit AT&T's own movie service.

Net neutrality is all about not allowing these big companies to monopolize who has access to the net as well as not allowing these big companies to decide who has the right to get full speed or degraded speed.

If congress gives them that right, the internet can literally collapse as companies will begin charging fees like crazy until no competitor remains on the net other than themselves.... which is precisely what the big telecom companies have done with cable tv and phone service.

Offline Wayout

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2010, 12:01:22 PM »
In a nutshell it means that data flow on the internet cannot be discriminated.

The current problem is that companies that are ISP's like AT&T want to be able to shut off data flow to certain parties if its convenient for their business.

The best example now is Netflix vs. ISP . Netflix has a massive bandwith usage since they stream movies. Netflix pays their ISP for access to the net. That ISP in turn is connected to a big ISP which has the backbone access to the internet (a company like AT&T). ISP pays AT&T a connection fee for that link.

AT&T thinks that since the data is flowing through their lines, that they should have the right to lower the bandwith or shut it off altogether in order to benefit AT&T's direct customers. In short, they say that those that pay AT&T directly should have priority and everyone else gets what's left. They argue that netflix is profiting greatly from using AT&T's infrastructure while paying AT&T nothing.. regardless of the fact that ISP pays AT&T a fee for the connection. From what I understand that fee is sort of a 'bulk' rate which is standard between ISP's but netflix is not an ISP and is gaining a lot of money.

More fuel to the fire is AT&T wants to get into the movie streaming market too so it bites them to see netflix using their infrastructure to compete against AT&T's online movie services.

So AT&T wants to either charge netflix or the ISP a big fee to compensate for that or if possible, lobby so that congress allows them to degrade netflix's bandwith in order to benefit AT&T's own movie service.

Net neutrality is all about not allowing these big companies to monopolize who has access to the net as well as not allowing these big companies to decide who has the right to get full speed or degraded speed.

If congress gives them that right, the internet can literally collapse as companies will begin charging fees like crazy until no competitor remains on the net other than themselves.... which is precisely what the big telecom companies have done with cable tv and phone service.

From what I've read the problem Netflix is having is not with AT&T.  See the following link. 

http://listicles.thelmagazine.com/2010/12/8-things-to-know-about-netflix-vs-comcast/

Could have missed the AT&T angle and if I have I would like to read it.

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Offline Tac

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2010, 12:36:28 PM »
Aye, im just using AT&T as its the only big name ISP i could think of.

Regardless, AT&T is pushing to get net neutrality removed so using them in the example is not too far off :P

Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2010, 01:07:40 PM »
In a nutshell it means that data flow on the internet cannot be discriminated.

The current problem is that companies that are ISP's like AT&T want to be able to shut off data flow to certain parties if its convenient for their business.

The best example now is Netflix vs. ISP . Netflix has a massive bandwith usage since they stream movies. Netflix pays their ISP for access to the net. That ISP in turn is connected to a big ISP which has the backbone access to the internet (a company like AT&T). ISP pays AT&T a connection fee for that link.

AT&T thinks that since the data is flowing through their lines, that they should have the right to lower the bandwith or shut it off altogether in order to benefit AT&T's direct customers. In short, they say that those that pay AT&T directly should have priority and everyone else gets what's left. They argue that netflix is profiting greatly from using AT&T's infrastructure while paying AT&T nothing.. regardless of the fact that ISP pays AT&T a fee for the connection. From what I understand that fee is sort of a 'bulk' rate which is standard between ISP's but netflix is not an ISP and is gaining a lot of money.

More fuel to the fire is AT&T wants to get into the movie streaming market too so it bites them to see netflix using their infrastructure to compete against AT&T's online movie services.

So AT&T wants to either charge netflix or the ISP a big fee to compensate for that or if possible, lobby so that congress allows them to degrade netflix's bandwith in order to benefit AT&T's own movie service.

Net neutrality is all about not allowing these big companies to monopolize who has access to the net as well as not allowing these big companies to decide who has the right to get full speed or degraded speed.

If congress gives them that right, the internet can literally collapse as companies will begin charging fees like crazy until no competitor remains on the net other than themselves.... which is precisely what the big telecom companies have done with cable tv and phone service.

Seems to me the best option would be to separate the two. Either you can be a ISP or a streaming site. But not both. Allowing both will only encourage monopolies which is usually bad for the consumer.

As an example, look at your local cable provider. I know where I am for a while we had the choice of Comcast..or Comcast. There was no alternative. Thats how it is at my mothers house in Fla now.
You either deal with their rates and minimal services for maximum pay, or you dont get cable. those are/were your choices unless you went Satt.
Thats how it was for us. Thats how it is for my mother. Enter Verizon into my area. Boy oh boy its amazing the things they are willing to let you have for the same price even as a basic package.
My mother is still stuck with comcast as her only alternative. And she hardly gets any channels as part of her package.

Comcast knows its the monopoly and they do what they do because they can. There is no real competition. You either accept their terms or get nothing at all. and my 74 year old mother doesnt want to deal with Satellite sooo shes pretty much stuck.

When ISPs are allowed to become streaming video sites. They have the ability to squash out the competition. to become the monopoly. Or to reduce the bandwith and/or charge the video streaming sites to such an extent that those sites are no longer viable at a consumer friendly price.
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Offline Tac

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2010, 01:22:36 PM »
That makes sense however the problem is that all the ISP's that make up the US internet backbone are the big telecoms that deal in every form of media: tv, movies, music, etc.

Just like with cable, all brand name companies that offer it are owned by these big telecoms. In Florida, comcast,brighthouse, charter, etc are all owned by Time Warner/AOL or similar super-corporations.

Hopefully the new civilian space industry will within the decade make satellite internet available to the masses with good speeds and have the same effect satellite TV had on breaking the cable monopolies. 


Offline DREDIOCK

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2010, 01:41:37 PM »
That makes sense however the problem is that all the ISP's that make up the US internet backbone are the big telecoms that deal in every form of media: tv, movies, music, etc.

Just like with cable, all brand name companies that offer it are owned by these big telecoms. In Florida, comcast,brighthouse, charter, etc are all owned by Time Warner/AOL or similar super-corporations.

Hopefully the new civilian space industry will within the decade make satellite internet available to the masses with good speeds and have the same effect satellite TV had on breaking the cable monopolies. 


Wouldnt be the first time mega conglomerates were broken up.
Anyone remember "The Bell system"?
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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2010, 01:45:43 PM »
Tac, I need to augment what you have already said.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that all the ISP's are having to pay to upgrade thier networks in order to satisfy the Netflix load, as an example.  Those ISP's are looking for someone to pay for those upgrades.  Raising prices to all the end users will happen if they are not able to figure out how to get some type of subsidy from those services which are placing extreme loads on thier networks.

Do not take what I am offering as being for or against this mess.  Personally, I wish Netflix, Youtube and other such services would die.  It certainly would make my life easier.
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Offline Tac

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2010, 01:57:19 PM »
Tac, I need to augment what you have already said.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that all the ISP's are having to pay to upgrade thier networks in order to satisfy the Netflix load, as an example.  Those ISP's are looking for someone to pay for those upgrades.  Raising prices to all the end users will happen if they are not able to figure out how to get some type of subsidy from those services which are placing extreme loads on thier networks.

Do not take what I am offering as being for or against this mess.  Personally, I wish Netflix, Youtube and other such services would die.  It certainly would make my life easier.

Yes but they can do that merely by charging the ISP through which Netflix connects to the backbone and that ISP should be passing the cost increase to Netflix. Instead they want legal right to block anyone and everyone they want in order to channel paying customers to their own brand services. That's the real mess imo.

From my understanding the backbone ISP wants netflix to pay them directly what is essentially 'protection' money while at the same time universally increasing the connection fee to the local ISP netflix uses to connect to the backbone. I may not understand exactly what is going on there but I do understand the backbone ISP is also trying to launch a rival service to netflix so there's a big conflict of interest there.


Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2010, 02:41:08 PM »
Part of the problem stems from the fact that all the ISP's are having to pay to upgrade thier networks in order to satisfy the Netflix load, as an example.  Those ISP's are looking for someone to pay for those upgrades.  Raising prices to all the end users will happen if they are not able to figure out how to get some type of subsidy from those services which are placing extreme loads on thier networks.

If you look at the current dark fiber capacity in US, you can easily see that consumers already subsidized all the upgrades for at least a decade into the future. There's no shortage in the 'last mile' segment either (except in rural areas).
Due to all current and future services, bandwidth usage is bound to rapidly increase with Netflix or without, that's given. Big players just like to have their cake and eat it too.

Look at the Bell/ATT monster...

Offline Raptor

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2010, 03:01:30 PM »
I am under the pretense that businesses will need to buy bandwidth to get favorable connection speeds. Meaning that big names like Fox, ABC, Google can dish out more money and ensure faster connection to their sites, whereas smaller sites would suffer (HTC Creations). Is this a correct assumption or do I need to slap the guy who described it to me? :headscratch:

Offline Wayout

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2010, 04:06:13 PM »
If you look at the current dark fiber capacity in US, you can easily see that consumers already subsidized all the upgrades for at least a decade into the future. There's no shortage in the 'last mile' segment either (except in rural areas).
Due to all current and future services, bandwidth usage is bound to rapidly increase with Netflix or without, that's given. Big players just like to have their cake and eat it too.

Look at the Bell/ATT monster...

 I would disagree with the amount of dark fiber in the field. There is very little, most the fiber is in use.

  The problem is two fold.  First there is so much old fiber in the field.  When it was made and spliced 8+ years ago it was made and spliced to the highest standards of the day and able to handle anything you threw at it. Today the transmit/receive equipment being made can send data faster than these old fibers can handle so the equipment has to be slowed down to match the fibers max bandwidth. 
 
 The other side of the coin is the new fiber is of such high quality the old equipment (and most of it is 5+ years old) doesn't send/receive fast enough to even come close to the new fibers max bandwidth. 

 It's easy to say "just upgrade the fiber and equipment" but not so easy to do.  It would take 10 years to replace the old fiber and hundreds of billions of dollars to replace the fiber and equipment and what would you have at the end, the same thing you have now. A backbone of fiber and equipment thats 10 years behind the times and no longer meets the need. 

 What's the solution?  I don't know but I don't think we'll find it with the technology we're currently using. Something new will have to be developed. Fiber Optics is yesterday's technology and will never meet tomorrows needs.
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Offline Tac

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2010, 04:13:01 PM »
AnsibleNet  :devil :pray

Offline 2bighorn

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2010, 04:51:45 PM »
I would disagree with the amount of dark fiber in the field. There is very little, most the fiber is in use.

Allied Fiber alone could cover 25% and that's not counting their new nationwide ring project. Just because some service providers are short on their own capacity due to unwillingness to invest, doesn't mean there isn't any dark fiber to buy or lease. Furthermore, dark fiber build up is currently outpacing bandwidth growth.

You just have to look a bit further than usual tier 1 suspects to see there's plenty.

Offline saggs

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Re: Net Neutrality
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2010, 05:53:25 PM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: December 21, 2010, 09:04:58 AM by Skuzzy »