Thinking outside of the box...

[flight17]

Ok so, as I have said multiple times here, I’m a Member of Air Heritage Inc. a local Aviation Museum and restoration shop near Pittsburgh, Pa.

Recently we were offered a Beechcraft C-45 (Beech 18) as a complete donation to us. Now the problem is, it’s located in Kansas which is about ~700nm flying distance away from us. The second problem is that it hasn’t flown in 17 years and has no engines with it, so the only way we could possibly get it here is by truck.

Now that is possible but it would cost a fortune. We did this last year when we had to raise 6,500 dollars to truck up an F-15A we had received from the government which wouldn't have happened if it wasn’t for one person who donated a very large sum of money towards it as he worked on the F-15 while in the military.



Now we also just found out that trucking it would be even more expensive because of the design of the plane. Like the B-29, its wings don’t separate from the fuselage at the wing root. Instead the wingtips come off (I’m guess just past the engine nacelles) reducing its overall width to 14ft. At 14ft wide, that would make it an oversized load! However after a very rough calculation, it might be able to be placed on an angle and fit on a lowboy trailer. However that still is going to be a very expensive job…

So here is the “Out of the box” thinking. There is only one other way to transport something over land other than by ground and that is by air and we have just the plane ourselves that might be able to do that. Our largest plane in our fleet is a Fairchild C-123K Provider.

Now if we could get the C-45 into the Pig, we could easily bring it back by air and would only have to pay for fuel. In fact, the C-45 will only weigh about 5000lbs since there are no engines on it, and the pig’s max cargo weight is 24,000lbs, but that was with the J-85 engines which ours is not equipped with. However, we still will be able to lift it. Since it won’t fit, the only other way is to tow it home.

 So the idea…

Drive out to Kansas get all the control surfaces off the plane, get the main wing spar checked as the Beech 18 had a problem with them rusting out, and do an overall check of the aircraft and its systems. Determine what needs fixing to be able to be flown back home. Take everything that needs to be back to our shop, fix it all and load it up on the C-123K along with anything else we determined would need to be fixed out there that couldn’t be brought back home for the repairs and fly out to Kansas. Spend a week or two out there getting it ready and prepared for the flight home.

Now to tow it, we would have to come up with some sort of system, but whatever it is, we have the hard points on the floor that can be used. Likewise, the hard points on the C-45 would also need to be found, but I’m thinking possible good spots would be in the gear wells or engine mounts, but I have no clue really.

Now say we get the go ahead from the FAA and everything is ready to go. The flight back would be made in two trips. Kansas-Indy (or Cincy)-Beaver County. Now when it comes to landing, the C-123K would bring us in tethered but once we are almost over the threshold, the C-45 would release the cable and land on its own. Then the Pig would circle back around and land. After refueling, the pig would again take off with the C-45 in tow and we would repeat the process at either Beaver County (we only have 4500ft runway) or Pittsburgh. I include Pit because the FAA might want us there instead, but BVI would be the preferred final destination.

Now obviously, it would take a lot of work just to be able to do this. We almost would have to get it into an actual flying state without the engines or systems which alone would take a lot of work. I haven’t even dug into the FAR’s yet to see if this is even A) addressed or B) possible to do. It would also take some work by engineers to come up with the right way to do it and to make sure it would be safe to do it.

I dreamt this up a few nights ago… It’s pretty much for toejams and giggles, but hey it might work. As of now, we won’t be getting the aircraft due to the financial reason, so it looks like the plane will be heading to the scrap yard unfortunately. However there are a few of us at Air Heritage that as still looking into the feasibility of possibly getting it. One guy said he will be going back out there to look at it and to get all of the facts about the plane and see exactly what condition the plane is in.


Man what a sight that would be to see! It might be the first time that such an act of transportation was done by a restoration group to get a future project back to their home base.

[Tac]

Ok so, as I have said multiple times here, I’m a Member of Air Heritage Inc. a local Aviation Museum and restoration shop near Pittsburgh, Pa.

Recently we were offered a Beechcraft C-45 (Beech 18) as a complete donation to us. Now the problem is, it’s located in Kansas which is about ~700nm flying distance away from us. The second problem is that it hasn’t flown in 17 years and has no engines with it, so the only way we could possibly get it here is by truck.

Might be silly but... why not check the C-45 and ensure its flight controls and surfaces will work... remove the props, streamline the plane & lighten it up...

then use a bigger plane to tow it like a glider to your airfield?

 

[Shuffler]

Ummm didn't he just say that??

[flight17]

Might be silly but... why not check the C-45 and ensure its flight controls and surfaces will work... remove the props, streamline the plane & lighten it up...

then use a bigger plane to tow it like a glider to your airfield?

 

lol shuffler, he must have read the first part and skipped over the rest...

Ill explain a little more though. There are no engines or props installed on it now as is. So a cone would have to be made for each mount to smooth the airflow over the mount. as it is right now, the firewall is exposed which is a flat surface which is completely not aerodynamic. Second, without the engines it will be 1200 pounds under its Empty weight of 6200lbs. Weight wise, the C-123 can pull/tow/haul it without any problems even with the C-45 at MTOW. If anything after thinking a little while earlier, weight might have to be added to the front because of the engines not being there, which could possibly throw its balance seriously out of limits.

as for the conrtol surfaces, i would expect all of them to have to be replaced as they were made out of canvas and have been out in the elements for nearly 20 years sitting. Also, i personally would feel safer being the pilot of the C45 if all the control cables for all the control surfaces were replaced as well. The wing spar i would be really worried about. I would have an x-ray team come in and fully inspect it.

Im not sure what type of braking system it has, but if it was hydrolic, then we would also have to get an operating hydrolic system on board as well at least to land at our airport. But then again, the pig lost all hydrolics two years ago while it was out on local flight in which all the pilots were doing their 3 touch n goes to keep current in it and instead of landing at the airport that had the fire and rescue services and a 7500ft runway available that they already were at (Akron-Canton) they decided to come back home so they would be able to fix it and landed at Beaver County (4500ft) with no flaps or breaks. that day actually has to very interesting stories behind it, which ill post in another post in this topic... but they made the last turn off so i would imagine that the c45 would be able to naturally slow down before the end of the runway. Pit is so slow that we could also land it there without breaks. Thats actually why i chose Indy and Cincy as the possible stops inbetween... they both have long runways, but hardly any airline traffic that we could do no break landings at.

[Tac]

He did? LOL. I understood something else

[Golfer]

Uhh...

First thought:

You have the budget to fly your own damn C-123 out there to get it but not put it on a truck?  That doesn't make sense.

Next thoughts:

Be very clear on a no-brake landing and a no-break landing.  They're different.

What happens to the guy in the Beech 18 when the C-123 has to abort its takeoff roll?  NFW or NFMMB if you prefer.

Without its motors will the Beech be within CG?  I doubt it.  That almost didn't work out for Ernie Gann when his radio tower shifted during the takeoff roll.  No thanks.

What's the wake behind a 123 like?  I can box a wake behind a Pawnee in a glider.  I wouldn't want to try it behind a freaking C-123.

This is what Mexicans and Cubans do in South Florida when they're too cheap to spring for a tow truck tying a rope to their vehicles.  This has no business being done with these airplanes.  What did the boys in OKC say about approving this little ferry?

Final thoughts:

Put it on a truck.  Spend more time figuring out how to do that then towing the damn thing halfway across the country behind a C-123.  If you really want to fly it in the Provider then push the thing at about 50 knots right up the cargo ramp.  It'll fold up nicely and the problem of having the wings too big will take care of itself naturally.  It worked for Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr. in their Porter...it'll work for you.

[flight17]

OK so for the stories... Some of the stories i have heard over there are just great lol

I just heard these two weeks ago at the Christmas party we have at the hangar for the members, but both were really funny listening too.

So every year, all the pilots in the organization must complete 3 landings and takeoffs in whichever plane they will be flying. So two or three years ago, they were out doing them at Akron-Canton airport as they have a long runway (~7500ft) and emergency services should we god forbid need them unlike our local airport. So that day, they went out and there was six pilots that all had to do their takeoffs/landings. First two completed theirs and then the plane developed and oil leak in the one engine so they flew back to Beaver and fixed it. It ended up that one of the rubber pipes had split in half. They ended up checking the other engine's part and it too was just about to do the same so they replaced its pipes too. So they loaded back up onto the plane and headed back for Akron. They got there and everything went as planed and Bob Huddock, who is the chief flight instructor at Moore aviation the country's oldest flight school in existence that is also located at Beaver County, was the person flying it. He had just done is last takeoff and upon departure after the flaps were up, someone in the back noticed that the Hydraulic Fluid reservoir was empty. So they all discussed on what they were going to do. They could land at Akron, have no tools or parts to fix the plane but have the longer runway and emergency services or they could fly back to Beaver and try landing there and be able to fix it easily. So they decided to go for option number 2...

On the C-123K the hydraulic system only controls three things: brakes, flaps and the rear cargo ramp.

SO they flew back to beaver and on the way they discovered that they had a few gallon and quart bottles on board of Hydraulic fluid but no funnel. They did find Dixie cups though and with that they had a plan. On short final they would form a line with everyone on board and someone would pour the fluid into the cups and they would pass it off to the next person until it was poured into the tank. They did this and the guy i was talking to said he was the one poring it into the cups, but in the whole process not one drop was spilt. Oh btw, the hole to pour it into the tank was at the very top and i think he said someone was standing on something to be able to reach it... but anyways so they got it all poured into the tank and were going to use it for the breaks if it hadn’t leaked out already. Unknown to them, as soon as it was poured in, it was flowing right back out onto the houses below.

The 123 has i guess a backup system for the breaks where they can shoot in compressed air to activate the breaks but, they only get about 4 shots of aircraft total. I didn’t really understand exactly how it worked but that’s what he said...

So they touched down considerably faster than normal as they had no flaps and they immediately put the props in reverse thrust. The only problem was, the number 1 engine's prop failed to reverse. So the plane instantly swerved to the right straight towards Moore Aviation and their ramp. now when the pig flies out of here, the whole airport pretty much stops what they are doing and comes out near the runway to watch it land/takeoff so there were quite a bit of people out on the ramp watching this all happen. The guy who i was talking to said that one of his friends was actually on the ramp at Moore and he turned to look at something and when he turned around, the pig (our C-123 is named Thunder Pig, hence "the pig" reference if you were wondering) was pointed right at him and began running. Somehow Bob was able to keep it on the runway after swerving multiple times and the ended up going all the way and turning off on the last taxiway.

Now the person i was talking to said he was standing in the right hand paratrooper door and when the #2 prop reversed at first it veered so hard that the right wingtip was about 1 foot off the ground. He was also the person in charge of throwing the chucks in front of the wheels once they got onto the runway. When he jumped out, he got under the wing and threw the chuck in front of the wheel. The tire hit the chuck and went right up and over it. So while the plane kept going he was trying to pick it back up to try again and his headset was ripped off his head and was dragging behind the plane. so he ran after the plane and was able to throw it in front of the wheel again and this time it stopped.

As it turned out, the first time when he did it, the flight deck determined that their bellybutton end was still sticking out over the runway and if they had stopped their, they would have had to close down the runway/airport so they applied power to clear the runway and that’s when it rode up over the chucks.

[Golfer]

Chocks.

And the pneumatic emergency brake is fairly common among various airplanes.  I've flown several equipped with a pneumatic emer brake system and it's essentially a bottle full of compressed nitrogen (or air depending on the airplane) installed in the airplane with its own independent lines going to some or all of the wheel brakes.  Sometimes you'll have inboard only, other airplanes outboard only and still others both sides but perhaps not on all of the wheels.  They don't offer antiskid protection (think Anti-Lock brakes for your car) and have limited applications before the pressure is depleated.

In the only airplane I've ever had to use it the handle was shaped with a little red ball on a stick and was called the lollipop.  One has to be cautious not to open too much because that pressure can lock the brakes and cause a tire to fail which would further reduce the airplanes ability to stop.

[flight17]

...

everything you have said i already addressed though except for the brakes. I also said that this was something i dreamt up during the night and that it would take alot more than just a dream to get done

However i will re address some things

Uhh...
First thought:
You have the budget to fly your own damn C-123 out there to get it but not put it on a truck?  That doesn't make sense.

Only expense in flying there/back would be the fuel. we burn about 200 gallons an hour which is about $600-800 an hour to fly for us. at about 4-6 hours each way (im not sure of its exact location in Kansas), thats $4800-$10,000 total if we were to pay the amount for fuel just like anyone else would pay. The price to ship an F-15A on two standard flatbed trucks was something like 6,500 dollars and that was only from north Georgia. For the C-45, it too would require two trucks if we were able to ship it over land. However, in addition to two trucks, we will have to purchase at least five statewide oversize load permits and possibly permits on the county level depending on the state, pay for two escort vehicles (one front, one rear, required by law), and more. This will push the costs up to and over $10,000 and possibly even up into the 20,000-30,000 dollar range. Worst case senario with it being on the western side of Kansas, it would be almost 500miles driving distance further than where are F-15 came from which that alone would bring normal trucking prices up to almost $10,000.

Be very clear on a no-brake landing and a no-break landing.  They're different.

What happens to the guy in the Beech 18 when the C-123 has to abort its takeoff roll?  NFW or NFMMB if you prefer.

didnt think about that lol... we would need breaks in it.

Without its motors will the Beech be within CG?  I doubt it.  That almost didn't work out for Ernie Gann when his radio tower shifted during the takeoff roll.  No thanks.

which is why i said weight would actually probably have to be added to get the CG back within limits.

What's the wake behind a 123 like?  I can box a wake behind a Pawnee in a glider.  I wouldn't want to try it behind a freaking C-123.

Im not sure as i havent been in a plane behind it. But we have some pilots that have been, which they would probably know.

What did the boys in OKC say about approving this little ferry?

Final thoughts:

Put it on a truck.  Spend more time figuring out how to do that then towing the damn thing halfway across the country behind a C-123.  If you really want to fly it in the Provider then push the thing at about 50 knots right up the cargo ramp.  It'll fold up nicely and the problem of having the wings too big will take care of itself naturally.  It worked for Mel Gibson and Robert Downey Jr. in their Porter...it'll work for you.

as i said other times, i just dreamt this up and only posted it for Sh*ts and giggles pretty much as the chance of it happening are about <1% anyways. i also said, i have yet to look into any federal regulations that would prevent this or to see if its even addressed at all.

As for inside, sure we could do that, but then we would have two planes that would never fly again

[flight17]

Chocks.

And the pneumatic emergency brake is fairly common among various airplanes.  I've flown several equipped with a pneumatic emer brake system and it's essentially a bottle full of compressed nitrogen (or air depending on the airplane) installed in the airplane with its own independent lines going to some or all of the wheel brakes.  Sometimes you'll have inboard only, other airplanes outboard only and still others both sides but perhaps not on all of the wheels.  They don't offer antiskid protection (think Anti-Lock brakes for your car) and have limited applications before the pressure is depleated.

In the only airplane I've ever had to use it the handle was shaped with a little red ball on a stick and was called the lollipop.  One has to be cautious not to open too much because that pressure can lock the brakes and cause a tire to fail which would further reduce the airplanes ability to stop.

thanks for the info...

this looks to be ours. written on the cylinder is "Cornelius Brake"

[Golfer]

http://www.twinbeech.com/ground_transportation.htm

Try this guy.

[MarineUS]

my dad is a trucker. He's got a CDL to haul nuclear waste - he can do it all. I can give him a ring and see what he can do if you'd like.

My dad said he'd do it. He's got an escort license and crew. Says he's ready to go. Just let me know.

[uptown]

It's a good thing that I don't run the museum. Because I'd just snap a photo of the plane and hang it on the wall......yes I'm that lazy and cheap  



Now THAT is thinking outside the box. 

[Tupac]

It's a good thing that I don't run the museum. Because I'd just snap a photo of the plane and hang it on the wall......yes I'm that lazy and cheap  



Now THAT is thinking outside the box. 

Someone buy this man a beer

[Jayhawk]

Any chance you could find out where in Kansas it actually is at?